Expression, Curiosity, Fear, and Self-Trust with Anna East

Anthony: Welcome to the Ambiguous Truth. I'm your host, Anthony Mistretta. In this show, we're going to be joined with a close friend of mine, Anna East. Anna and I met through some mutual friends in Atlanta a couple years ago. We've been going to festival every year for at least for me the last three years, which is where I've really gotten to connect with her. Lots of dancing, lots of boogieing together, which is no surprise given her profession. Anna has been professionally dancing for I think about 16 years. She had her first professional gig at the age of 14 and considers herself to be an artist among many domains. Some of them are dancing, choreographing. writing, acting, among others. So please welcome Anna East and now time for the show.

Anna East: No, I'm good. I'm ready to rock and roll. Okay.

Anthony: Let's go. Also, thank you so much. I really appreciate you taking the time.

Anna East: This is a fun time. This is a fun time. Fun things, you know. Yeah.

Anthony: Yeah, indeed Wow, I did not know you started professionally at 14. That's crazy. So professionally in the sense that you were like getting paid for your performance, what was

Anna East: Yes, yeah.

Anthony: it? What was the first, what the first professional performance you did?

Anna East: I think it was technically modeling, I believe that's where I started. And then I started doing local commercials and films in Orlando. So it was like, actually one of my first jobs too was up here in Atlanta. I lived in Florida then, but it was up in Atlanta. And that was, it was for some kind of like modeling thing, but they wanted dancers specifically, cause it was like this dancey model. It was a whole thing at a... If anyone knows America's Mart or American Apparel Mart or something like that. Yeah, people, some people know about that. Yeah, so that's how it started. And it was just like little things, because I was dancing and training professionally that way or pre-professionally, right? And at a conservatory. But I really liked acting and more than just dancing. So my mom was trying to find avenues for me to do different things that weren't just like community theater. because community theater was like so intensive and dance was so intensive and they couldn't do both. So that's how it started.

Anthony: That's awesome. I kind of want to save this for later, but I'm just itching to hear about it. Can you talk to me about Japan?

Anna East: Yeah, yeah. Okay, so for people listening that don't know me, I'm literally drinking out of Mount Fuji Cup right now. Mount Fuji Cup right now. I was 19, I was 18 when I got the job. So I was living in LA as a teenager with my parents. And I was auditioning for everything I could because I wanted to move out. And I auditioned for Tokyo Disney, not knowing anything about it. and got the job. So I was 19 when I moved out there. And over time I lived there initially for two years and then three years different places and went back for another two years in total. And yeah, it was extremely, I mean, I don't know where to start. It was extremely formative for me. I was such a young being moving out to a foreign country on my own. And I had like the knowns, which was a job with Disney and I had coworkers, but everything else was up to me. I thank God I love traveling. I love change. that was a beautiful thing for me, but it was also very hard, know, being that young and restarting your life, I guess. But yeah, ultimately, I mean, it's like, I haven't been back in now five years and I'm just starting to get to truly miss it again, so I'm trying to figure out how to get myself back to visit at least.

Anthony: And you did a total of three years there, right?

Anna East: I four.

Anthony: Four. Okay. But not all at the same time. Right? Okay.

Anna East: No. Yeah. So it like two years, three years off and like doing other things. And then I went back for six months and then I would come or I go somewhere else for six months and go back for six months and that continued for two years basically. Yeah. Yeah. You are. Are you

Anthony: Yeah, that makes sense. Cool. Well, I'll be going in January and February. Should you? Yeah.

Anna East: going to go skiing and start snowboarding? I yeah. Very cool. Hakone or Hakuba?

Anthony: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. So my pass has Niseko on it already. So I'll go ski there, but I'm not sure how long I'm to stay there. And I have a couple of other friends, like some of my Australian friends are going to be meeting up there in February. So I'm not sure where exactly they'll be. So I'll probably bop to wherever they're going. And then one of my buddies from here, he's probably going to join in Niseko because he's also an icon. But yeah, I'm pretty excited to get out there. It's definitely been on my radar for a while,

Anna East: Woo!

Anthony: both in terms of skiing and just in cultural exploration.

Anna East: Yeah, yeah. And my gosh, February, I mean, it's gonna be cold, but it's gonna be so awesome. Like, just everything that happens there, like everything is celebrated. So like, no matter what's going on, there's something to celebrate or to like, like

Anthony: Mmm.

Anna East: take advantage and take like in the same way that I feel like winter sports make the most of the winter season. the Japanese culture is just like, this thing's happening, this thing in nature, we're gonna like make it. a glorious thing that we celebrate and pay attention to, which makes it easy to live or be there. Any season?

Anthony: Yeah. It's also just nice, like, being a part of that culture where there's so much appreciation and gratitude for life. I think that's something that sometimes you overlook and you forget to just look up and be grateful for, like, everything in front of you. And I hear that's a big part of their culture is, gratitude, also and also, excellence. Like, every every person just has this strive. to be like the best at whatever the job is that they're doing. Even if it's something that is, monotonous or, you know, nothing fancy. They're like, well, it doesn't matter. I'm going to be the best at janitorial services or what? Yeah.

Anna East: Mm hmm. Yeah, like they take their jobs with a lot of like honor and pride and like, it's cool. I think it's really cool. I think it makes me think about, is it the word is it Meraki, but like just like finding purpose, like in the thing that you're doing, you know, I'm reading The Prophet right now by was Khalil Gibran, I think I'm, I don't know that's correct. But, but he, they asked The Prophet like, tell us about work and it kind of describes like this really cool connection of like putting yourself into it makes it all the more like you're not going to stop the flow of the universe in the way things are continuously changing so work can be made as that like you can have a purpose every day with whatever you have going on you can actually put yourself into it it would be cool to speak or listen to people talk about why that feels like a value, you know.

Anthony: Yeah. So when we first talked on the phone a couple of weeks ago, well, not first talk, we've known each other for years, but like when we talked about the podcast

Anna East: Okay.

Anthony: months ago, you said something about your life, it looks chaotic from the outside, but it's based on curiosity and faith. And I really like that, specifically that last part about being based on curiosity and faith. And it sounds like you know, at 19 years old going to a foreign country, like there had to be something that you said there was basically one known, which was the job. Other than that, everything else was kind of up in the air. So has that curiosity and that sort of framework been there as, you know, Anna was just a little, a little taught, or do think that's something that like you've grown into or through life experience have evolved into?

Anna East: That's a good question of like when that started kind of kicking in more so. Because that is a huge moment where I did lean into that. And I think it taught me a lot about how to move in that way. Hmm. I think that that's always kind of been a part of me in the way that like I think about little things I've done where I had a curiosity and I felt like a little bit afraid of something and I didn't want to let myself down by not going for it or I would feel I think even more I would feel like I don't disappoint myself if didn't actually go for the thing because I was afraid if I let the actual fear get through the excitement or overcome the excitement.

Anthony: Mm.

Anna East: So I feel like, there definitely was always a little part of me like that. But I don't think it really kicked in as much until I got to my teens. Because I think also going to California as a teenager, I think I I just learned to build self-trust because well acting was one way because acting or auditioning in general it's like you're afraid of something and then you're gonna go into that I was always afraid of auditioning like now I'm a lot better because I don't care honestly don't care as much as more of like a I've like worked with my brain a lot to feel not so stressed about it but you put yourself in an audition room and you love the thing that you're doing, but there's a lot of fears and things that can come in. And you have to push through anyway, because you know, the excitement of what you actually love is more important than all that stuff. So I think that probably had an effect on me. But then I also living in LA, taking acting off the plate, I was in all of these situations with social stuff and going to parties or going to things that like a 17 year old maybe shouldn't have been doing. Right. But it was like, I was there. because I was 17 and I can talk my way into things. can, these people think I'm older than I am or whatever, not doing anything too crazy, but it was just more so like being in a room where I felt cool because I was hanging out with like friends, you know what I mean? Or whatever, or like getting into this like dance space because of that, I think I was building self-trust as a young person and then I guess, yeah, the Tokyo thing definitely like amped it up quite a bit.

Anthony: Mm-hmm.

Anna East: but no, that's a good question. I think, I think it's always kind of been there,

Anthony: maybe it's been there, like the seed was there, that curiosity has always been a part of you, but it just takes practice for like the, you know, the fear might always remain the same, but your confidence or your like faith in self may slowly increase over time. And so that's what allows you to take on bigger and badder challenges year after year. So it probably did start with a little bit of a seed. Because I feel like there's something

Anna East: huh.

Anthony: intrinsic in you where you're like, is my passion. I mean, you've never, I mean, I think you had a lot of conviction behind going the path of creative. Like again, when we talked a couple months ago, you've always had non-traditional creative jobs as a child. As 14 year old, sounds like was your first professional. You know, your first job probably was at 14 and that was a paid modeling slash dancing gig. so I feel like in order to take that path, there has to be like an intrinsic level of conviction you have in yourself that you're able to, go that route and not like go with sort of a safer route, if you will.

Anna East: Yeah. I mean, I will say my mom was pretty supportive of me doing that. So I think having her approval, you know, because I

Anthony: Mmm.

Anna East: still though like that's manifested in other ways, like, you know, living life for your parents approval is like such a thing for everyone. Right. So but she did have the approval for that direction. So that was a huge help for me. And I think. like my dad was a little bit more weary of it and still is, but you know, it's, that was probably really helpful. I think that's probably part of it too, is that my mom was a support. My family, she's a graphic designer. My dad likes to work in audio visual stuff. My brother's

Anthony: Mmm.

Anna East: like one brother works in VR. One brother works has worked in like editing hubs and has done like assistant directing on sets and stuff. And the other brother was in the music scene. we all were like, I think odd odd balls that my mom was like here you're an oddball in this way let me push you to just do that thing you know which was cool I don't know where she got that from maybe because she's an artist herself so she just let you know wanted to encourage that

Anthony: That's awesome. I'm very grateful that I have a lot of creativity in my family, but for everyone, it's a hobby. Their

Anna East: Mm-hmm.

Anthony: jobs are very jobby jobs. then they have music, mostly music. My sister plays drums, my dad plays drums, plays percussion. My mom sings, plays piano a little bit. So it's mostly like the music is kind of the creativity in my family. But it's never been something that anyone has really pursued professionally. I mean, my dad has paid gigs. My mom, I think she's had some paid gigs. So I guess in that sense, like it's professional, but it's not like their primary source of income by any means. But it's really powerful

Anna East: Yeah.

Anthony: to have like your whole family just have that like creative that I mean I think it's not surprising to see where you are given that that's kind

Anna East: Good.

Anthony: of your your roots and your DNA.

Anna East: Yeah, I think, you know, I always hear about like families that are like, oh, my dad, my parents were both musicians and we're all musicians. And I was like, oh, that's so cool. I'm not considering my own family to be that way, but we kind of are,

Anthony: Mm.

Anna East: think from the outside, even though we're all kind of like more so, I guess, techie artists, like it's still a similar thing. I did think about this though. You had mentioned that your parents hadn't done like a professional gig. And I think it makes me think about like this spirit of like curiosity and stuff and how it doesn't always have to be work. It can be. you know, just something we don't make our income off of. it makes me think about me exercising that same like curiosity, courage dynamic and overcoming the fear monsters if you are excited about something I've been writing poetry lately. And for me sharing that poetry is my version of my gosh, I'm so that people are gonna think it's dumb or that it felt so good in the moment to write that stuff. And then it's just like, but if I share it, it's so cliche or whatever. it's reminding myself, has that ever really stopped you from the things in the past? And yeah, maybe somebody doesn't like it, but is that really how you wanna live your life? let that person determine whether or not you make these things that bring you joy. I think like I was improvised dancing yesterday and it felt so good. And then I watched the video, I record it sometimes I watched the video back. was like, not that great, but it felt great, you know? but I guess it's still if I share it, it's more of like sharing. I want to share the feeling. my gosh, it felt so good to do this

Anthony: you

Anna East: thing, you know, rather than looking great or whatever. So I don't know. It makes me think about sometimes that same spirit can be applied, whether or not it's professional or not.

Anthony: 100 % and you touched on so many good little nuggets in there. I think the first one about like You know art it shouldn't be so much I think about the outcome as much as it is about the input and the input being Emotion, right? So when you're improv dancing you're I imagine at this point like when you're doing that you're probably just flowing through it you're not really really thinking about it, but I would also bet that that the driving factor behind the movements is the emotional experience that you've had in your life, maybe that you're going through this week or something recently, you know, that's causing, you know, the art to come out of you. And it's something I really struggle with, even with this podcast is like the, it becomes real when it's in front of people. And that's scary. Like I haven't performed in any capacity since. think college was the last time that I played sax in front of an audience, was when I did Jazz Band. I guess technically a couple years ago, I played, I don't know if you were there for New Years when Derek was DJing, and then I don't know if you were there.

Anna East: I think I like stepped away when you did that, because I was there. And then I'm like, why don't

Anthony: Okay. But that I don't know if that really counts because that was just like fucking around with friends more so than playing for like an audience, I guess. But I think, you know, it's it's it's tough because you want like the final product to be something that's exciting and like it's a good representation of like what you felt was going into it. But like ultimately, that's not how art works. Right. Like art is it's so much more important that it's coming from a real place and it's like a genuine You know, sort of like the emotions that are transposed in some sort of other art form and that's what makes it beautiful. But it's also hard because you want it to be like the best representation and you get in your head and you're like, I don't know if that was what I wanted to see. So you mentioned improv dancing and I think improv dancing is probably, I would bet it's probably one of the most like just authentic forms of expression. But you do a lot of dancing for that. I know you've choreographed and that's, you know, choreographed by others. So I'm curious, how do you feel you're able to do you feel choreographed art or dancing is like prevents you from really sort of expressing yourself and creating the most authentic art form? Or do you feel like there's ways that you can sort of, even though there's constraints and it's choreographed and whatever, that actually gives you the opportunity to potentially express yourself more or differently?

Anna East: I think that's a great question. was literally thinking about this in terms of writing just before you asked this.

Anthony: Mmm and on that note feel free to answer in any art form that you explore to don't just feel limited to

Anna East: Yeah.

Anthony: dancing

Anna East: I'll just, I'll dance, I'll dance for you and I'll tell you. kidding.

Anthony: Do it. Give me a play by play. What's going on in your mind?

Anna East: Right, right. No, so that's a great question. And I do actually think this applies to, at least for me, like my writing versus painting versus, you all that kind of stuff. really, with dance specifically, I think you nailed it by saying that improvised dance is my most authentic expression of it's so intrinsic to me to be able to communicate some kind of feeling or I'm digesting and I'm processing when I use my body to like, it's a great tool for me. But I also think in the challenge of choreographing, The beautiful thing about that is it kind of it gives you a parameter. You know, can improvise with parameters too, right? Whether you give yourself like a texture, you want to like move through honey, or you want to only dance to the drums, or you like those things you can do, or you're dancing around an object or something like that.

Anthony: What you mean move through honey? almost like you're not

Anna East: yeah.

Anthony: able to move as quickly because you're met with some resistance? is that a common term?

Anna East: Yes. Yeah. Well, like the quality of your movement is changed by thinking about moving through honey versus like if you're moving through, I don't know, a even dust storm, you wouldn't really move that that differently, I think, except for your eyes would be shut. But it's like, you know, water. Right. Right.

Anthony: Water, you know, it's probably not, it's not as viscous as honey, but it's harder to move through water than air or something. interesting.

Anna East: Or you're like you're pressing against some clay. Like, what does that feel like if you're like doing

Anthony: Hmm

Anna East: something? or your arms are pressing through clay. don't know. There's the ways that I, when I teach classes, I give like students some parameters to explore quality of So like honey is one that's like really fun to kind of play with it. whether, whether it's coming off of you or you're moving through a whole gallon of honey, like you're tiny and you're moving through it. there's different ways that would affect how you, how you move through space. but, and that's like, I mean, it's that rabbit hole. You can just keep going down. But with, With choreography, think the expression is... For me, it's a really good thing to practice. It's something I'm sometimes a little bit afraid of. Choreography seems like a beast and it's hard to translate what's in your brain to... Because I even improvise something, right? I'm just feeling it and I'm moving through it and it feels really good. And maybe I record it maybe I love how it looks. But to recreate that... to look at my recording and be like, how did I do that? If that's even kind of difficult because I'm moving so intuitively and so fluidly and I'm not really thinking about it, to sometimes match that again is a little bit difficult, I found. So it really is kind of like a good thing to work on and work through in the same way of like, if I was to write a piece, like say I'm feeling all of these emotions, but to write a poem that actually like speaks and punches you and feels good and like gets, even me as the writer, if I'm reading it back, feels good. Like that's an art form in itself. And so I think even this past year, I've been doing a lot of improvised stuff, whether it's a lot of dance, we'll just say dance. So I'm doing a lot of improvised dance and I've been loving it. But I was like, man, I kind of miss working on something and refining something. I think by having that structure, you're able to kind of break through even further than you think you can because it's, it is hard and you do have something to place yourself into.

Anthony: Mmm.

Anna East: and I think it can ultimately be, both can be extremely rewarding, but I think they're just different applications and yeah, that makes sense. Like I've been craving like a set, like a show where I can actually work through something and get better at it.

Anthony: And I mean the improv that you were doing where you said there it felt like there was sort of a disconnect between What you had in your mind what you were expressing and then when you watch the video back and you looked at it like, that wasn't really it. And so through choreography that gives you the ability to Refine that right you can look at what you were doing in an improv Setting and then you can you can figure out potentially what is that link that's missing and then tweak it iterate on it because ultimately your goal is to take whatever is in your brain you you can't articulate it with words. It's hard to really transpose that or translate that into something that is observed and received by an audience. And so as the artist, that's kind of your objective and it's hard to do that in your first shot. Like that is the challenge with improv, I would bet. And so that's kind of the, that makes sense. Like

Anna East: Thank you.

Anthony: with improv, it's the most raw form potentially, but with something that's more choreographed, it might be the most accurate representation of what you have up here translated into something that you're doing in your dancing.

Anna East: Yeah, absolutely, absolutely.

Anthony: Yeah.

Anna East: And I think that it's cool that you're able to even translate that, know? Because we've danced in the same space before, but it's like I dance all the time. for me to say that, yeah, that's a great description of what's going on. But yeah, I think the working on it and... Not everyone wants to dance for someone else, but I do love the ability to storytell an impact and say that is what I see in my brain and it is now living on my body. It's really, really rewarding. Yeah, Yeah, I feel like had more thoughts when you're speaking about it than two of them. They're they're out there. It's a good feeling.

Anthony: Yeah, I love watching you dance. It's so fun every year to just, and I enjoy boogieing with you. It's so fun, so fun. Because I don't think

Anna East: Yeah.

Anthony: I'm technically skilled at all. I wouldn't consider myself a good dancer, but I am not afraid to move in a

Anna East: Yeah.

Anthony: weird way.

Anna East: Yeah, but then you just do what feels good to you, right?

Anthony: Yeah.

Anna East: Like I just think, that, okay. Now remember what I was going to say is when you

Anthony: Perfect.

Anna East: have created the structure of choreography, you can still like, once you have it in your body, what a great thing that I like to practice. And if I'm teaching or choreographing for somebody to ask them to bring is once you know what the movement is, you take that same feeling as if you're improvising through the emotional space of what's going on, right? Take your same spirit and then place it into that choreography. So if you have the structure now and you know what you're going to do with your body, you can still take your spirit. And that's what makes it an incredible performance is like you're getting those worked on movements and then you're bringing that presence back into it. And that's what I think. personally makes a great performance or a great like expression within his piece of set choreography to show somebody here's the experience and the it's all set so we do know what we're saying here but I can still get that new like every time I do it I can give you a new iteration of it because

Anthony: Yes.

Anna East: I'm going to be giving you my spirit you know

Anthony: So it's like even though the movements are set, the emotion that you are able to express through those movements is entirely on you as a performer. And that's probably what makes the great stand out among the good. It's like the first step

Anna East: Yeah, yeah.

Anthony: is just getting the movements down, but then it's your objective as a performer, as a dancer, to take emotion and place it into the dance. I've had a lot of conversations with musical artists, producers, indie artists, things of the like. the thing that we've kind of, it seems understood across all of them. is like their sort of measurement of success is like how much experience and emotion can I bake into the song. And so for lyrical artists, it's about the poetry, it's about the, you know, the actual verbiage that they choose. And then for melodic artists and less non lyrical artists, that's where it's about like the sound selection, the rhythm, the articulation, I think it's pretty understood now that through these conversations that, you the art is ultimately like the emotional expression. And I think as consumers of art, whether we're listening to music or watching dance, we don't really know. what's going into it and what the emotional experience of the person is. But it's very palpable as a viewer or listener, observer, when there is successfully emotion packed into it. And like the deeper the emotion, the more moving the piece. And I can see artists that I don't particularly, like I wouldn't necessarily say it's my genre, like my top genre or my favorite kind of music. But when you see them perform, you're like, holy shit, how is that? happening right now. there's just this almost this energetic vacuum that just sucks up everything and all you can focus on is that performer. And that's like the you know I think the the gold standard is for performers to be at that point where they're able to just capture all the the energy. So

Anna East: Mm-hmm.

Anthony: what have been some of your your biggest challenges that you faced exploring a creative path as opposed to something a little bit perhaps more like traditional

Anna East: Yeah, well, I feel like I have, before I answer that question, I just have one thing I wanted to say about like musical artists and that kind of thing

Anthony: Please.

Anna East: of, I think it's incredible. I think about being a technician, being an incredible technician versus someone who's putting their art into something. And I think sometimes that's a differentiation of the ability of My computer right now can't handle like for video editing that I do. I would, I was thinking about this today. I can't handle a lot of heavy footage, but that doesn't mean I'm a bad editor just because my piece of technology, you know, there's a lot of technicians that could be like, I've got all this stuff. I know how to work with this piece of technology really well, which is fantastic. However, if they're not putting the rhythm and the feeling and the movement into the piece that they're editing, it's like, it's not going to translate into this impactful film or video or whatever. So I just feel like that. It's so across the board for so many artists of hearing those musical artists that are able to bring all of that. they've been able to transcend just the technician

Anthony: Yeah.

Anna East: part and get into that artistry. I don't know, it's beautiful. It's a mastery. And I'm honestly always amazed by other artists that can do that. And it brings me back to the point of like, sorry, screw fear. Screw fear.

Anthony: Do not apologize. Say whatever.

Anna East: Like, like if you've got that feeling that intuitive hit, like I'm going to write this thing because I'm feeling so compelled. Do it like doesn't like that is that is if that's the spice, that's the spice of life of art of the reason why we're humans are special and have these whatever the heck we do, why we do what we do is that don't let Don't let people's maybe naysaying of that's bad poetry stop you from putting your heart out there. So my challenge is...

Anthony: Cause it's not, it's not, we'll get to challenges. Cause that makes me think, know, it's like Rick Rubin talks about in, where is it up there? The creative act, I don't know if you can see it, but it doesn't really matter. Talks about how you know, art is not something that can be judged as good or bad. It's something that is, like it's just you are acting as an artist or you're not. And so, And I think it's really observable when an artist that you like puts out a piece of art that is emotional, but it's also pretty observable when an artist puts out something that's just purely like what you said, the skill. Rufus, for example, when they released their latest album, it just felt like there was a lack of depth there, a lack of emotion there. And I'm not sure if there was or if, I don't know, it just felt like they... they had this duty to create and so they were super, super, super skilled musicians so they were able to put a new album out but it's not like when I listen to their older stuff, there's just like a, there's a feeling and I listen to their newer stuff. I think there's a couple songs that I, there are a couple songs that I've enjoyed but the majority of it, it just doesn't really connect. And so I think it goes both ways.

Anna East: Yep, that's a good example.

Anthony: You you have to, you have to, I think like people are so afraid that what they're, and this goes for me too, I'm not throwing anyone under the bus, this is myself included. We're so like afraid of being ourselves and being judged for being ourself and being authentic. But the problem is, maybe the, you know, the sort of, the catch 22 that we run into here is if we fail to be ourselves, and we fail to create art from a genuine place, then it's not going to be art. Or it's going to be art, but it's not going to be enjoyable for anyone because it's just like a pseudo representation of what we think it should be rather than something that stems from a place of meaning and impact. And I mean, think just in general, you got to move through life genuinely. You got to think through. I mean, that's not a novel take by any means, but I think it's really clear when artists don't. Going back to what you're saying. you shouldn't be too concerned with is this gonna be good because what what is good? Does that mean it's received by a lot of people? I mean, maybe but there's also a lot of art that like is Just in front of a lot of people and like I mean, I don't know. It's so subjective. It's just it's so subjective that really like You can't compare your work to another person's work or you know, it's a lot. It's just whatever comes out. But how do you deal with that? Like how do you, I'm sure there are times when you catch

Anna East: Yeah.

Anthony: yourself and you're like, oh shit, like I feel like there's so much emotion going into this, but now that I'm looking at the final product, I'm not happy with it.

Anna East: Yeah, I think it kind of goes into your question of challenges of pursuing an artistic career. It really does bridge that because there's... There's times when one, on one side of things, I could make something that I feel so excited about and I'm really into. And I put it out there and it could be, who knows with social media, that could be an algorithm thing or whatever. Or I have, say, my paintings up and the one that I'm really excited about, people aren't passing over, but they're excited about something else, right? So I'm like, why is that not translating as to where I've know what's behind this. I guess with dance and performance and stuff, if I lose myself in it in a good way and I'm really in it, I do think people do connect to it. Whether or not a fellow dancer thinks it's good, that's the technician side, know, I have no idea what's going on for Rufus de Sol, right? No idea. But what I could, you know, maybe assume is that either let their label or something like that was like, you gotta put something out, right? Or they feel the pressure to or whatever. I've gone through so many moments of my life where I am, for so many different reasons, be financial things going on, family things going on. I'm stressed, I'm lost, I'm this, I'm that. And my creativity is zilch. Like there's like nothing going on. And sometimes I think it's, and so these are some of the things like there's always like the part of being an artist that can be difficult is reinventing or not reinventing, you're just like constantly staying up with changes of how do I continue to make money in this space. industry changes. That's a whole section I could talk about. I think one thing that does happen is when you feel like you're stumped and you feel like the creativity is not coming or nothing is worth talking about and there's no aha moments and you're just like, bleh. Everything you put out is just bleh. In the past, I think that that would have stopped me or I would have thought like, I'm done. I'm not an artist anymore. It's not worth it for me to try to keep going or I'm no good or whatever. And that no good meaning like I've already come up with my best things. It's not going to come again. Or I had a good idea. Where is she? Why isn't, why isn't she able to make those things or write these ideas or paint this really cool thing? and so often I find, either I just need to change something slightly. maybe it's the, I stopped writing for a while and it, cause I, words weren't coming to me. and I couldn't figure out how to describe things. So I started painting and the painting felt really good because there was no words. And I'm doing abstract paintings and I'm just, getting it out of me. And I'm not as afraid to still put my feelings on something. and it's, feels less personal. People won't know that I'm hurting. They won't know that I'm really sad because I'm just using blues and I'm not saying I'm heartbroken or I'm not saying that I'm scared. I'm just using blues and I'm, and I'm doing this thing. Right. And, So I think what I'm trying to say is that I used to think that it would just and sometimes you're just tired. Sometimes you just need to sleep. You need rest, you know, before you can feel inspired again. But other times it's like, I'm feeling blocked because I'm not paying attention to the thing that actually wants to come out. And I'm trying to think about what I should be doing versus you know, I always think about like, I was going through a really rough time. My brother was having brain surgery and I was working at this convention I had a moment where I worked for an art company and we had these butterflies so everyone could make their own butterfly. And I decided to make it about how I felt that day, which I thought was gonna be really scary and ugly, because that's how I felt was scary and ugly and sad. And I started doing this whole thing with tears and like blues, like I talked about. And I am so proud of that butterfly. And it taught me so much because I was like, this is beautiful. And I actually loved it. And I was so proud of it. And was so glad that I had an outlet to actually share a little bit of how I actually felt. And I don't know if that butterfly looked good to other people or not, but I was like, this is one of the best things I've ever made! And I

Anthony: Thank

Anna East: was so afraid to let anybody know how I felt that day, you know, or in general in that season of life. but I realized that those feelings weren't so scary, you know, they were actually really beautiful. it helps with emotional processing and all that kind of stuff. So I

Anthony: Yeah.

Anna East: think that like, the ups and downs of feeling blocked. And I hope with Rufus, I'm sure they put a ton of work into what they just did. And I hope that if they feel stretched or they don't feel like that's what they wanna be doing or whatever it is, they have a moment to rest and do the small little thing that does feel good.

Anthony: He

Anna East: if they, for any artists, if you're finding that that's like, You feel dry and you feel stumped and you feel stumped. There's so many, you just try something else, do something else or sleep, one of the two. Or don't be afraid to make something really ugly. Because I think that that's also super freeing is make ugly shit and then see if that feels good. And if that feels good, make more, make more ugly stuff and make the thing that you think no one want to look at because it's so ugly and see

Anthony: Yeah.

Anna East: how that feels. You know, I even say that with dance, like, like Do the really ugly stuff because that is so freeing. Like how often do you let yourself just shake and not have to look good, you know, just because it feels right. So I think, you know, with work and it's crazy when all that stuff also relies on what you do for a living, you

Anthony: Yeah.

Anna East: know. So that sometimes really does affect the ebbs and flows of my journey as an artist and being able to consistently stay in work. I feel like I wear a lot of hats because it can be that creativity you can't like, I'm not a robot, no one's a robot. So when that's your bread and your butter, it's like managing that can be interesting. I'd say that's probably the biggest hurdle as a professional artist is constantly getting work to rely on it. And then also not becoming a machine or feeling like a machine in all of it. So, yeah.

Anthony: Yeah, I appreciate you sharing that. I can't imagine what the pressure is, you know, like for. know, artists who are signed to a label and they have the expectations of the label, they have the expectations of the fans and their followers, you know, there's a ton, a ton, a ton, a ton, a ton of pressure. And, you know, that's not the best environment to perform. And you're not gonna create your best work when there's sort of like this objective and this pressure to create something. Instead you create your best work when you're able to be your most authentic self and you're able to Translate, know everything that's going on in your heart and in your mind into you know Whatever form you're choosing to use, you know, if that's writing drawing painting dancing, whatever it may be That's gonna that's gonna yield the best product That's got to be so hard like doing it professionally when it's like, how do you balance that? How do you balance the pressure from your manager, your boss or whatever, and still make sure that it's coming from an authentic place? I mean, obviously people do it, right? Like Pixar exists. That is a corporation who's able to generate gold. They really do have, and there's

Anna East: you

Anthony: the whole Creativity Inc. great book about their whole creative process, and they do such a good job that at least based on what I read in the book, they do such a good job of fostering and curating that creativity. But they're obviously there to make money as a business and put out product and sell it and make more money. But they find some balance. So it's definitely possible at a corporate level. So on an individual level, how do you find that balance?

Anna East: Yeah, well, it makes me think about just today. I felt inspired to write something because I'm going through some change in my life, right? And I wanted to write about it. And I was clocked into work and I was like, I know I've got to get this done and this done and this done today. And what I'm getting at is that I think that there's Creativity is oftentimes not valued in the same way as productivity, right?

Anthony: Yeah.

Anna East: But the thing is it works on a different cycle and it works on a different schedule. the thing that is, I think, if I give you a really good value, it's not always time-based. So to put it on a schedule can be difficult sometimes because and it sounds like such an artist thing to say, but it's true. It's like, I poured into writing something this morning. And I also got all of those things done because I felt so filled that I got to fill up my own cup and do something that was actually meaningful for me that I was able to then like sit down and like beep boop bop and get the things done for work that I needed to get done that were even like lightly creative, but I wasn't feeling like personally motivated by, right?

Anthony: Yeah.

Anna East: But because I was able to pour into myself this morning and actually do something that I cared about, I found easier. And I think that I find myself wrestling with work all the time man, if my company was able to give me my coworkers investing in okay, today's your creativity day, because we're all artists that work, we work together. Here's your creativity day, go fill up your cup. What does that mean? Does it mean going to a coffee shop today? Does it mean going to a museum? Does it mean making a cozy meal? Like, what do you need to do? Or doing a nature walk where you're noticing and you're journaling, what do need to do to let your brain and your everything grow and be expanded in that creative space so that you can make the best work that you can. I don't think that I can write incredible things if I haven't taken care of myself first or you know, it's, so I think that that's I almost wish that that was built into my schedule instead of clocking in, boop boop bopping, pushing. Sometimes yeah, sometimes you just gotta sit down and start. That's also a thing. But like a lot of the time I'm like, man, if I could just go walk around the block and not feel bad about it before I sit down and write all of this, I bet you I'd write something way better than if I just forced myself to. So I think that that's something to, you know, in the corporate world, maybe Pixar has a really cool balance where the people can go take a nap if they need it, or they can go walk around or they can go drink something interesting or chat with their coworkers in a, can I pull you into this room? I just need to talk through this idea really quick. You know, maybe there's something like that.

Anthony: Just distractions. Yeah, sorry. It didn't mean to cut you off, but distractions can be

Anna East: no, no, no.

Anthony: really, really, really helpful. You know, like it's different if you, you know, you're sort of using a distraction as an excuse not to get work done. But if you are at a creative block, it can be super helpful to remove yourself from whatever it is that you're doing. And that's actually partly like how your brain functions. Like your brain does need rest. It doesn't work. You can't just, I mean, it's like every part of your body. You need rest. If you work out and you tear down your muscle, well, how does it grow back stronger? Through rest and recovery, right? When you are trying to memorize something, you won't actually retain the information until you stop trying to memorize shit, give yourself a break. And that's why like people who, you know, study a fraction of the time for a test are able to do better than people who do all-nighters because people who pull all-nighters... they're only able to retain 20 % of the information because they don't give themselves ample time to rest and rest their brain and actually retain. Whereas the people, because this is like my sister and me, my sister all nighters all the time. She would just like read until the test. And I was like, it's nine o'clock. I think it's bedtime. I put in a good hour of studying. Let's go to bed. And I didn't retain, didn't learn or like remember everything. But all the shit that I did read, like all the stuff that I did study, I remember that. And so I would do relatively, you know, well, I did fairly, fairly well. So I think distraction can be a superpower. And then I've also, one of the words that just started to really like give me the ick is productivity. That is like such a, such a horrible

Anna East: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Anthony: concept. Because it implies that, that you, in putting time into bucket A is objectively better than putting time into bucket B. And it's not based on your determination of where do I want to put my time. It's based on someone else's. And I fucking hate how many tools there are about being more productive. And I was talking to a developer friend of mine about AI. And he's like, it pisses me off because in a perfect world, When you create a tool, tools are supposed to be used to make life more efficient, right? A hammer is more efficient than, or a nail gun is more efficient than a hammer, right? And so like theoretically, you know, if you're a developer and what took you 10 days to do now takes you, you know, an hour or two, like then you should have fucking saved the eight extra, nine and a half extra days that you're not working and do something fun. But instead you're now just held to a higher standard. Your productivity goes up. So now

Anna East: And

Anthony: your output can be greater. And it's like, you know, if there's ever tools that make productivity, you know, better, it's not to serve you as a person and make your life better. It's to serve your job better so that they can create more, make more money. And I'm not saying making money is bad. I'm not saying creating more is bad. Those are not inherently bad things. But I think that productivity for the search of productivity is, is, is stupid. Like, why do that? And I just, hate the concept that like, if you're staring into space and looking up at the pretty sky, then like, what could think, thinking of like, what, how could I better use this time? Probably fucking no other way. There's probably not a better way than to look at the fucking clouds and appreciate them. You know, I hate, I hate that term. There's a podcast

Anna East: Yup. It's so true. Yup. Yup.

Anthony: I love, love, love, love, love, love, It's called acquired Ben, Ben Gilbert and David Rosenthal. They're fucking legends. But. There's a couple times when they talk about productivity and they're like, oh, this app makes me work productive or they'll be like, you know, I have an extra five minutes to spare. so I do X, Y, and Z and it irks me. I'm like, dude, don't, don't spend those five minutes doing something productive. Do something count. not counterproductive is not even a thing. Productivity is not a, which shouldn't be a word. Like, like it's, it just seemed, it's

Anna East: Great.

Anthony: so silly. Cause like, how do you also kind of, how do you even know that? Like. Let's take your, let's go back to what you're talking about. So let's say you're at a block, right? You're at a creative block and you're trying to do something. Like what is the most productive use of your time? Well, your manager is going to say, well, if you don't feel creative in this, you know, in this moment, then why don't you go work on spreadsheets or why you do some tasks that like you can, you can allocate however many hours or minutes of, you know, time you have left in the workday, put it there because that's what's quote unquote productive. But your number one job is to, as a creative is to come up with the best. product, you know, and that product is whatever art form, whatever, you know, written work, let's say you're working on something you're writing, right? So that story that you're trying to, that should be what is prioritized. And like in order to create the best

Anna East: Yeah.

Anthony: work, take a fucking walk, you know, for 30 minutes. That 30 minutes,

Anna East: I'm here.

Anthony: I think could not be better spent. It literally could not be better spent. But there's a process where there's a, you know, there's a friction and there's tension with your employer because they see that as a waste of time because you know, I'm paying you for eight hours of work and that's 30 minutes that you you're not doing. It's like, well, correct.

Anna East: Mm-hmm.

Anthony: Because if I spend those 30 minutes doing something else, then that's only going to make my creativity plummet even more. And that's one of the, I'm so grateful to be in a freelance role because I don't have someone telling me when to do things. I have timelines I have to, you know, adhere to. But if it's 3 a.m. and I decide to work because that's when I get a burst of energy. And if it's 3 p.m. And I'm like fuck it is beautiful outside. I'm gonna go for a walk I do feel very very very grateful I have I have the flexibility to do that and I think it's made my product the irony of it all is I think it's made me more productive like I can get so much more done

Anna East: haha

Anthony: just Because I'm listening to myself listening to my body listening to what I need Rather than being you know forced to do something that just doesn't fit with you know what the objective is I'll get off my soapbox. Productivity is just a word that irks me.

Anna East: Yeah, yeah. mean, no, I get it. I get it. I think I'm, you're, preaching to the choir. You're soapboxing to the audience. I feel that so much.

Anthony: to the washcloths that need the soap.

Anna East: I feel it so much because I mean, I keep thinking about lately, this just goes into like, I think people are starting to change their minds about or understand or tap into, like, hey, we're just human beings on this earth and how do really want to be spending our time right now? Why is this system telling us that I have to wake up and do this thing for you for them? Yes, we have to earn money in the system we're in right now. It is what it is, but it's also to say, looking up at the clouds is a bad use of our time. for instance, I was hosting someone this past week to stay with me unexpectedly. And I went against what I needed, which was to have a slow day where I hardly did anything. And I thought, well, it's better for me to help my friend and take them on errands and do these things before we both went to a wedding than it is for me to listen to myself and rest like I need to. And then I ended up at the end of the wedding and the next day feeling so drained and so terrible because I didn't take care of myself and do what I actually needed. And I felt like I needed to go be the productive friend instead. it didn't help me at all. And it was, I was like, why did I feel like me resting wasn't something worth speaking up about? why did I feel like that? You know, and I think it all ties into the same kind of thing is that we're just taught like the narrative of that staring up at the sky is a wasteful thing as opposed to it being like a best thing about life is staring up at the sky, you know? Like to be here, right? I think for me, is the point of life is just to be here, right? So that's, being means sitting and you know, that's, that's filling up your cup in that moment, cool, sit there and fill up your cup until you can't, until you're like, I gotta go do something now. Cause I feel so full from staring. You know?

Anthony: my life coach and friend, he's a friend of mine too, Alexei, he has this quote which says, we're not human doings, we're human beings. And I love it. I think

Anna East: Mm-hmm.

Anthony: that so beautifully encompasses exactly what you're saying. Like just being is the point. Yeah, I've been getting a lot into

Anna East: Mm-hmm.

Anthony: the weeds of like, what is life? What is like thinking a lot about spirituality, consciousness, things like that. And it's... I mean, pretty much the more I get into it, the more I realize just how unnecessary and self-serving so many of the systems that exist are really doing. It's like, this really what's best for human beings? Do I really think that value of a human being's value should be measured by their productivity or their delivery? to a, you know, like in a economic sense. Like I don't think that way. I think, you know, there's so much, there's so much, so many things in life that are hard to measure, but so deeply valuable. Relationships, I think, are one of them. And I think there's like this weird, it seems like now there's also like, especially with things like AI, there's like a polarization. They call it like the barbell curve, where it's like, you know, the, and there's like, I don't really buy into the barbell curve, but it's basically like a normal distribution flipped upside down. So like you have the median is zero and then the edges are like the 50 % of everyone is on the polls. the polls being like productivity output, corporate focused, and the other one being like life is about enjoyment, human connection, relationship building, all that stuff. But even though I don't fully buy into the barbara theory, I do see like a little bit of this like bifurcation where I think as technology continues to increase and progress at such a drastic rate, it does make me really question like, is that like, what's the, at certain level, like what's the point? Like we're so technologically advanced compared to where we were 50, 100, 200, a thousand years ago. But like, is the technological advancement objectively better? Are we in a better place? That I don't know. That I'm actually not certain at all that

Anna East: Yeah.

Anthony: we're in a better place. Like don't know if it's objectively better. I mean, you look also at like lifespan versus health span. It's like technology has increased the lifespan, but it hasn't increased the health span. So now people are just living 30 shitty years at the end of their life instead of living, you know, like 60 good years, 50 good years, right? They're living like 50 good years and 30 years

Anna East: Hmmmm. Yeah! That's an interesting point! Yeah! Yeah!

Anthony: of misery. It's like, I'm sorry, but as soon as I'm going downhill, I'm like, lived a good life, I'm out.

Anna East: Right. Oh man, that's an interesting point. It makes me think of, had a silly conversation the other day, which I'm going to speak about this like, I don't know. My friends and I were thinking about like, we're talking about cults. there's lots of cults, but then we're talking about not that it's a cult, but just the lifestyle of the Amish because that technologically, is at a certain point that they've chosen to continue to stay at that point of technology advancement.

Anthony: Yes.

Anna East: So we're thinking, this is an interesting kind of thing of why have people chosen to stay there? So as a silly kind of imaginative joke, my friend said, well, what if there's time travelers that have been to every single point in history and they have decided that the point of the Amish, that technology point is the best

Anthony: Mmm.

Anna East: point to actually live at? And so that they're time traveling and hopping back and forth and they're just like, it's almost like a landing spot for these tired and weary travelers, time travelers, to come and rest in that time period or that space. Because I mean, I don't know, like, you know, I have not lived the Amish lifestyle, so I do not know how hard it is or anything like that. But just to think about what if that was chosen to remain that way? because how much better does life get, does our health get? as we continue to grow. There's some things that I'm sure are awesome. I love the access I have to tools to make the art that I like or being able to go train at different places that excite me. That's a really cool thing about some of the advancements that I get to live with. But we were just thinking about what if the simple act of growing your own food and the homesteading movement that's happening with a lot of people. What if those types of things are the gratification of we build this with our hands and it feels really good to have done that. And that's a super gratifying feeling as human beings. I don't know. I, that was just something we were talking about of an idea, but it does make me think about how much, you know, of our wellbeing versus the big systems that we get swept up into. That makes sense.

Anthony: 100%. I mean, I'm fairly confident there are time travelers in this world. There's aliens, there's time travelers, sure. I don't not buy that. I also think that

Anna East: Yeah.

Anthony: it kind of makes sense where, I don't know if it's exactly kind of where the Amish are, but I think there is

Anna East: Thank

Anthony: a point where the detriment of technology becomes greater than the benefits of technology. And I think we're starting to see that. And so I think there's a lot of people in this world who place intrinsic value on technology. And then there's people who recognize there can be technology as a lever and we can leverage it to create a better life for ourselves. Right. I love that I can hop on a plane and travel anywhere in the world, anywhere on this earth. That's fucking amazing. you know, that's like, in the grand scheme of things, a very recent invention. But I don't think that technology is inherently a good thing. I think it's amoral. I don't think it has any good or bad. I don't think anything is, I think everything's amoral. I don't think there's anything that's intrinsically good or intrinsically bad.

Anna East: you

Anthony: It's how we choose to use it. And I think everything has both good and bad. There is no such thing as something that is just, that is a good thing. It's like, there's trade-offs. Every single thing in this world has trade-offs. But I do kind of, understand like with the homestead movement and people like so a couple of months ago a buddy of mine started building a geodome and it's like 17 feet wide 20 some feet tall it's constructed of two by fours that are cut and into like triangular and trapezoidal regions and then this polypropylene which is basically like more or less thinner plexiglass And then some flashing to ensure that water doesn't drain and run into it. And it took, were probably 30 of us in total who over the course of these months had like three full like 20, 15, 20 people building. And then a couple of times that like, I went over to his place, a couple of other people just went over here and there to build this thing. And then we had a festival last weekend to like, not really celebrate it, but that was a big part of it. Like everyone got to see it. And it was amazing. like, can't, there were probably like three or four times when I was in the dome and everyone's just like looking up, like, how did this even, like, what the fuck is this? Like, how is this even built? And I'm like, you want to know? Like, but it was so gratifying. Even, even when I just like, you know, heard those conversations, I wasn't a part of them, but they're like, how is this built? And I'm like, that's amazing. Like that, that gratification that you get from

Anna East: Thank

Anthony: building something, creating something, And I think I don't know I think there's a move there is a movement obviously, you know getting back to like our roots and I feel like technology has pushed it technology is sort of what's caused it's pushed me away from tech like I went to fucking Georgia Tech Georgia Institute of Technology like the most one of the most techie schools in the US and here I am like preaching about how now you should like Not fuck tech, but kind of fuck tech

Anna East: Yeah, it's the balance, Like

Anthony: It's a balance.

Anna East: recognizing the good in it and also the evil and I think the good and the bad. yeah, I think that's maybe that's that's a big question that we at this point, you know, I think the people that were here before us the last hundred years were like, my gosh, new growth, new growth, cool, cool, cool. This is awesome. you know, and but I think, you know, systems are not always taught for control reasons and not always taught to check in on the system. But there's a lot of systems where it's like, okay, like it can be revisited, it can be looked at, it can be sat with and assessed is this actually working? And, and technology, I think is a part of all of that what track are we on? hold on, hold on before we get so mixed up in all of that. And it's, it's interesting and weird because there's so many systems that we do or don't have a lot of interaction with, but they do affect us with technology too. So, yeah, it's an interesting time to be living, but it's also like, okay, well, Here we are in the middle of it. I guess we can sit and ask ourselves at least, how do I want to interact with this? What do I want to do about this? how does this feel for me? And not feel like we have to just submit to what is actually happening. not that, we can, it can be a cool thing. Like my friend, if she feels like she loves robotics, you know, if she feels things are helpful for her as a tool, awesome. And there's so many helpful robotic systems that are amazing. in so many applications, or even like the health field, that kind of thing. But it's like,

Anthony: Absolutely.

Anna East: I don't know, it's just like, what do you feel? What do I feel? What does my neighbor feel? We should like to have that autonomy and to be able to choose well, actually I prefer, instead of the robot picking my food, I'd like to touch the food myself. I'd like to do that. I'd like to actually prune my own garden, you know, or whatever the heck. Or like, I could get an iPad tomorrow and start painting digitally, but I actually really like painting. like, the act of it is what's really gratifying for me. So but then the next person might love seeing their mind on the paper really quickly, so they might prefer the digital. Yeah, so I don't know. I think that that's, it's like, you know, being 30 years old and kind of being like, all right. Here I am. What's the meaning of life and how do I actually want this to interact with me? But it's something I think we've got to check in about. it's interesting to have like conversations about it because sometimes you're like, what are we doing on this planet? So I don't know.

Anthony: Yeah. Well, I think that's exactly right. Like it's important to have the conversations and check in and just have those those moments where we're just like, OK, hold on. Hold up before, you know, because before we do this, what are the implications or, know, before I choose this path, like, do I actually, you know, do I agree with it? Do I want it? And like, to be clear, I like I'm kidding when I say fuck tech, because there's a lot of technology that I do really like. And there's a lot of technology that I that has made my life better. And as a software developer, I'm constantly building tech or leveraging tech and kind of stitching it together, whatever. I'm not like creating AI. I'm not like I'm not smart enough to do that or knowledgeable enough to create artificial intelligence, but I can't leverage it. So it's not like I'm, you know, I'm all high and mighty and above it. But I do think it's important exactly to your point, like have those check ins and just think like, is this. whatever this thing that I am contributing to, is this value additive to my life and the lives around me, or is it value detractive? And that is on such an individual basis. That's not something where anyone can make that decision for anyone else. And I think that's why, as a country, we're dealing with so much opposition right now because there's so much of like, so many things that are just being forced. And it's like, well, I didn't really have a say that... You know, I wanted this to even even with like AI just being introduced. It's like I didn't personally I never asked for it. You know, like so much of this stuff is stuff. It's like it's here. No one asked for it. And the Amish are the ones who are like, not only do we not ask for it, we actively go against it. You know, so I don't know. I think your your little Amish

Anna East: Mm-hmm.

Anthony: theory is fascinating. It's a good little conspiracy out there. They've seen what the world turns into. they're like, no, thank you.

Anna East: Right. It'd be interesting to listen to some interviews and hear what people have to say. but yeah, I there's so yeah, there's so many rabbit holes on all that stuff. But I do think it's the check ins and to not be afraid to talk about it. I think even sometimes I think of people in my circles in life right now are like, God, another AI conversation. at the same time, we're like, okay, but what how do how are we feeling about this? This is

Anthony: Mm-hmm.

Anna East: a lot. to be like, you know, dealing with and it does affect everybody. But I think it's good to have the conversations and I think even sometimes, I don't know if you've ever felt this, but sometimes my brain, I almost feel like I operate in the digital world occasionally and I feel like whenever I start to think that way, I have to like pull myself away from digital spaces and social media spaces and remember what touching grass is like, right? For instance, we're just what? I instead of getting that dopamine hit from something online, like why don't I try to read a book? Why don't I try to make myself a nice meal? Why don't I try to get off of it for a second and remember what real life is? Because I think that also kind of plays into these systems that can feel a bit overwhelming is feeling reliant on them too. And then operating mentally from like, from within that digital world versus in the technological world versus actual like. Oh, my breath. Oh, wait a minute. You know, yeah. Yeah, there's a lot to it. And then oh, coming circling back to the artist thing, right? if you can be anything in this world, what do you want to do with yourself? Yeah, but I don't know.

Anthony: Yeah. Okay, one other topic that you touched on the phone is you said kind of like that the path of creativity, that path of chaos, it's a choice every time to choose that path. So I'm curious, like in your life, when have you felt like you've been at sort of a fork in the road and you can take this creative where you might be met with more friction and some challenges versus something that, you know, might on paper perhaps look a bit easier, what does that choice look like for you? And how do you continually come back to choosing the thing that you feel aligns with you most perfectly?

Anna East: I'm kind of in something like that right now in life where I keep going back and forth to like, do I find a job with stability that is maybe a less satisfying day to day? Maybe it could be really satisfying. Maybe it could use some skills that I haven't found it yet, like utilizing skills that I also like that aren't solely just creative skills. Or do I try to continue to support myself in the creative? ways, endeavors, like and continue with freelance and still continue to find performance gigs and invest myself there. I mean, in the past, I've said to people, like we've talked about identities and how identities can be limiting, they can be freeing, they can be different things, whatever you call yourself, right? So if I'm a daughter, I'm a sister, I'm an artist, I'm a dancer, I'm a this and some, I've had a friend that said, I don't want any of those. I don't want those names because then they tell me who I am and how to be. And I can agree to some point, but I also was like, I think the one thing I feel really confident in is saying that I am an artist. Because I'm like, whether or not that feels true in every single moment, I think if I allow it, the one thing personally, and maybe this is just where my brain leans towards, is that I feel like creativity just like pours out of me. And it's the thing that I can lean into that feels the most like, actually quite steady. But I think that that's a practice thing. I think that it's a thing that you have when you're little, and maybe you stray away from it for a while. But once you start to open it and tell yourself I've like the my neural connections that I built, that makes sense. the neurons are firing faster and faster. I read about myelination and the white matter that forms around the neural connections. And I feel like I've built those over and over again, by practicing that I can be creative and I can lean into that creative thing or I can just strike on a piece paper and make something. And the more you practice, the more you remember that you can do that. So, you know, in the day-to-day world of having a job, it, I think it, for me right now, it's a choice of like believing in myself that I can, especially in the world that is, the industries are changing and shifting. You know, that's always a factor. But I still do think it's the, knowing and awareness that you can be creative and that you can do these things. Again, I go back to my mom saying, you have my permission to go and do this. If you're able to give yourself that permission, you know, take a moment to see that work of, can I give myself permission to do this? That

Anthony: Hmm.

Anna East: it's not less productive to go and doodle because that feels really good. Or maybe I want to go make, I mean, Say you're sitting outside and you just see some twigs and leaves, to give yourself permission to go and make a little shape out of that, do you want to make some kind of art out of the twigs and leaves that you see? If you want to, so many of us think, we would shut it down immediately, because it's almost like, that's like, we're already so programmed to think that's not worth anything. As

Anthony: Hmm.

Anna East: to where it could actually be a yes, a yes towards creativity and a yes towards that thing that feels good to you. I suppose, but.

Anthony: Yeah.

Anna East: Yeah, I don't know if that all makes sense, but that's kind of where I think the daily choices happen for me. And because I've built the routine around it and I've built that myelination thing has

Anthony: Yeah.

Anna East: really like helped me to be like, I can create habits around the things that I actually value and love. And I just have to tell my brain that I can do it. Even if it's this big, even if I'm doing this tiniest little thing, it proves confidence. get confidence. You know, I doodled something yesterday and I was like, Look at me. I made some lines and I'm proud of my lines. And that's it. You know, and then maybe you want to write a poem today.

Anthony: Yes. Yeah. I love that. Yeah, I love that because I think

Anna East: Yeah.

Anthony: too often we fall into a trap where we decide our course of action, whether that's something very small like, look at these leaves and these twigs. They're already laid out like a crown. What if I made a little crown out of them? But then we come we fall back to like, well. But I have to have this document that I, this proposal has to be done. So I have to go and work. So like, that's not really worth my time. Like, this is the thing. And so it's so easy to, you talk about giving yourself permission, and I think it's so easy to sort of forbid yourself from doing things that are, like, you can't quite easily measure the output of those actions, right? Like, what is the benefit of putting stricks together? and leaves together to create a little

Anna East: You

Anthony: bracelet or a crown. I mean, I don't know, that's not really going to be like value additive in a strict sense, right? Whereas like, it's easy for my brain to say, well, if I submit this proposal, then that gets me one step closer to work, which means I get one step closer to earning money, which means I get one step closer to paying my rent and going to Japan and doing all these things. And so when we logic ourselves so much towards a conclusion that's based on pragmatism but really we should sometimes ignore that and think about What is it that my heart wants to do? What is this weird thing? You know this feeling I'm getting that's like hmm You should you know you should go and look that it's like when we're you know wandering around Spirit Lake And you just get this little tickle. That's like hmm You see something that looks funky over there. I'm going to go explore that. Right. And of course, like you're in the state of mind for many reasons, you're in the state of mind where like you're so much more open to that. But like we should be open to those little curiosities on every day. It shouldn't take a once a year or twice a year. It shouldn't take like festivals to do that. It shouldn't take drugs to do that. It shouldn't take anything other than just like your your, know, just the little curiosity that you have as a human being to do it. Yeah.

Anna East: Yeah, yeah, what

Anthony: comes to mind?

Anna East: comes to mind?

Anthony: No, please, I'm gonna take it, take it.

Anna East: Okay, okay. Just two quick things is one thing

Anthony: Take your time.

Anna East: that comes to mind is the idea of would making that little stick figuration of art or whatever, would that make your day? Would that make it so that your day was worth it? And as a human being with nothing else going on, like the five minutes it would take, would you feel excited and proud of yourself? And is that enough? Is that enough for that reason? You know, I think that and then I think we have to sometimes experience that over and over again to say like, maybe that is enough. Maybe that is what I want. Right. Or tell ourselves that it's okay to feel that like an inner child type thing. And then the other piece is like with Huluween with allowing yourself to just make that little formation. something I'm really interested in in general, I think I filled my life with a lot of play and whether or not I realized it, but that was what I was after for a lot of this stuff. And what I think is so magical about Huluween and, and like my, my intuitive dance classes and different things that I've started to want to create environments for is that it allows people to play. And I think that's also just I don't know exactly where that's leading, but that's something I'm really curious about. And I think it's all connected with creativity, with the reason to wake up every day. Is that little bit of joy or sweetness or... proudness or whatever and that's what we want kids to feel and it's you know, if we're still the same, you know, so I don't know that's something I'm I'm very still curious about.

Anthony: Yeah, I also don't know how, feel very strongly that there's a connection between like curiosity, play, childhood, and just enjoyment in life. I don't know how those things, you know, really operate together, but I do fully agree that there... Yeah, it's

Anna East: That was quantifiable.

Anthony: not, it's not, it's not. Yeah, I wanna, wanna quick go back to you touched on identity and that's something that's come up before. in one of these conversations. And I'm curious if you would mind, first of all, before we get into it anymore, just kind of share your sort of definition of identity.

Anna East: Something I haven't thought about much lately, but I...

Anthony: Weren't you just having a conversation about identity with a friend?

Anna East: I know I was. Yes, yes, yes. Well, we were talking about it, right? She brought it up and I don't like I haven't. Like I think a lot of people do really think about identity a lot, and I do too, because I've gone through my own identity crisis and crises, I should say.

Anthony: Yeah.

Anna East: And and constantly changing and thinking like, if I take all of these these labels off of myself, I'm free to change. I think today my poem was about identity. That's, you know what? Nevermind. I'm, I'm without using that word. I think about all the time.

Anthony: But also, I mean, it is very different to write about it, talk about it, than it is to define it. So if you do not want to define it, that's

Anna East: Yeah.

Anthony: not a problem at all. I'm happy we have... If there's anything you want to share about it, we can talk on that. I thought that would be a good starting point, but if it's not, I'm happy to scratch it off.

Anna East: Yeah, well, just, think identity is, I think after verbalizing all that, it's labels that we put on ourselves and it's ways to categorize ourselves to feel more secure, which isn't a bad thing. I mean, if it helps us, it helps us feel safe and secure and belonging, that's

Anthony: Mm.

Anna East: awesome. At the same time, I was thinking about something that the earth is, we're always, gripping onto security and safety, which is very primal.

Anthony: Mm-hmm.

Anna East: But it also, it's like the earth is constantly changing and we can build ourselves certain amounts of it, but to give into the change of identity can sometimes be really hard for people. sometimes taking those labels off is a helpful way to really allow, allow, understanding of self versus placing it on yourself or whatever

Anthony: Mm-hmm.

Anna East: it might be. You know, I think that there's a lot to discover there. And just when I was writing the back to that poem I wrote today, it was all about craving room and space to basically take everything off of myself, look at it all and then place things on, but then still allow what's deeply within to still come through. So it was

Anthony: Mm-hmm.

Anna East: literally just about like kind of rearranging the identity that I've put on myself, taking it off. seeing what I like, what I don't like, what do I wanna put down and what do I wanna place back, but still allowing the constant changing, moving person underneath to still appear and be. And that all was happened because I looked at a musical artist, I was listening to it, was it Trevor Hall for

Anthony: Mm.

Anna East: a second? And it was his old album that I had on that I like a lot. And he had like long blonde dreads, I think. And he looked super young. And then now he's got like buzz shaved, like bleach blonde hair and was wearing like his first album he had no shirt and tattoos and his second thing that I was looking at the massive haircut crew neck tee and a little scarf. And so he looked extremely different like from a young man to a grown you know, I don't know how old he is looks like he's late 30s something like that grown man and the transformation that he's allowed for himself, you

Anthony: Hmm.

Anna East: know. whether it just happened by life or seeing that comparison, he looks very, different. And I was like, man, I love that he's allowed himself that space to transform. And

Anthony: Yeah.

Anna East: I think that that's an identity thing, right? of allowing ourselves to do that

Anthony: Right?

Anna East: and whether that's internally or externally, you know?

Anthony: Yeah, yeah, and you mentioned like this primal draw towards stability and safety security, which is true. And I think with that comes an expectation or a hope, a longing for resilience and permanence, perhaps. But in reality, nothing is permanent. There's only change and there's only, you know, life and death. And At least in like a life and death on like a human level. Like we'll die in our, believe like, you know, our human body will die and then we'll continue, you know, living on in some sense. But, you know, that identity, it's not something that is ever permanent. It's something that, I mean, maybe for some people if they like really force it to, they're not gonna see changes. But I think if you live really true to yourself, Like the point of life is not to reach a destination or find, you know, all right, I have my job, I have my wife, I have my picket fence, I have my kids, like I've made it. It's really a journey, you know, it's like,

Anna East: Mm-hmm.

Anthony: it's, it's, part of, part of your journey, that identity is also a journey. It's not something where there's an end goal. It's not like, I really, and that's something that I really had to shift because through my many life crises, I have also felt like at certain times a, identity crisis where I, you know, the, Anthony that I once was doesn't really resonate with me as much. And I think I perceived it as like a loss of identity, but in reality, it's not a loss of identity. You still are yourself. still like that's your identity is still like a part of you rather. It's an opportunity to continue to explore new parts of you to explore like another layer of that onion. and move physically, that's a great way to explore your identity. know, physically get out of the place. You've done a handful of moving, at least four states you've mentioned on the podcast alone. So, well actually I think you're from Washington and then you mentioned California, Florida and Georgia. So those are the four. Is that all or are more? Well obviously Japan. That's, no shit, I didn't know you lived in Alaska.

Anna East: Mmm, Alaska. Yeah. And yeah. Yeah, I guess and Hong Kong and Shanghai. Then that's it.

Anthony: right. Okay. That's cool. Wow. So five states, two additional countries, handful of cities in both of those countries, but Japan and China. So cool. But anyway, I think, you know,

Anna East: Yeah.

Anthony: think it's so easy to search for milestones, have goals, objectives that we want to reach and like search for the finding of those. But really, I think it's such a tremendous blessing that our identity does evolve because it lets us continue to journey through life. I think it'd be pretty sad if like, all right, I'm Anthony. I have a mustache and nose ring, curly hair, and that's all I'll ever be. It's like, nah. I mean, those are just physical attributes, right? I do think they're somewhat tied to my identity, but there's so much more that's out there. And who knows what we'll identify with when we're five, 10 years older. But that's such a... cool thing.

Anna East: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I think it's beautiful. mean, I like your idea of it's not always, yes, you might choose to let some aspect of your old identity go if you'd like to, but it doesn't mean you're losing it, but I like to constantly get to explore the who am I, what am I now. Yeah, but I think it's all, it's even the life and the death. still like, it's all intertwined, but it's a beautiful and also I think very cathartic maybe that's the word, way to look at, can I constantly discover myself or just get to experience, I think experience more and more of myself or see or love or loving different parts of me that felt distant or scary or I was excited to or I'm shameful about it, can I experience all those things and love all those things and be excited for new things or Can I feel creatively inspired again? I don't know, you know, maybe that's not where I'm at right now. Or like whatever, for those artists that are feeling stumped or something like that. I think that's also has to do with identity and all of it. I think you've made some fantastic points. Your Australian listeners are gonna be like, what the hell is that? second.

Anthony: I reckon we can work on that.

Anna East: Hahaha!

Anthony: Perhaps for the rest of this podcast, we'll just speak in our best Aussie accents.

Anna East: God. Okay. Wait, wait, I think my, my accent is more, no, more

Anthony: more British.

Anna East: so, more so, more so it's bad. No, I got to, it's not worth it. I think Australian accents are like my worst accents, even though I like

Anthony: They're fucking hard.

Anna East: have a lot of friends that are, they're hard.

Anthony: They're hard.

Anna East: And my friends are mostly from Queensland. They're specific,

Anthony: Yeah.

Anna East: different from the one you just did, I think.

Anthony: Mine's probably more like Western Australia, Perth.

Anna East: all your friends. Yeah. Yeah.

Anthony: I think even aging, you mentioned changing, even aging is such a beautiful thing. It's something where with plastic surgery, lip fillers, Botox, all that stuff, I'm not against that or against people who do that. But it seems interesting that there's just so much resistance to aging. And don't get me wrong, I want to take care of my physical body and not age. I don't want to look like liver king at 50 years old. So there's a lot of choices that I make. But I think it's the difference between having a sustainability mindset versus being just resistant to aging and change. think those are two very different things. But I think it's such a...

Anna East: Yeah, it's grappling with that too.

Anthony: Yeah, for sure.

Anna East: I'm grateful that you have asked me to sit down and have a good chat with you. I think it's really cool to have moments of like intentional conversation. And it's really empowering for me as someone who, you know, when you do a lot of things and you don't get a moment to really sit and reflect and talk about them or. Oftentimes I don't think that I'm looked at as an expert in anything. So it's really nice

Anthony: Hmm.

Anna East: when someone says, hey, I want to hear about your thoughts on this. Because it's something that I do highly value is being able to say, you know what, I have had a lot of thoughts about this and I've had a lot of life experiences here. And maybe like it's just going to benefit me or you from having this conversation or somebody else is going to be like, my God. I've been thinking about this thing. I'm not the only person thinking about this thing. And then we can do things together.

Anthony: Hehehehe

Anna East: You know what mean? like, I don't know. I appreciate you asking me to sit down and chat. And it makes me just want to do more of that and value, you know, spend time valuing conversations like this.

Anthony: This is literally one of my favorite things to do in this

Anna East: Thank you.

Anthony: world is just like have a real conversation Anna, thank you so, so, so much for joining. It was an absolute pleasure and blast. Yeah, thank you, thank you, thank you.

Anna East: If you're listening, have my heart hands. Thank you, Anthony. You're the best. I'm so glad that we get to connect like this