How Creating a Drink Brand Transformed His Entire Life

Cheers. Cheers. What are we drinking? Actually, before we do that, Sam. Sam, thank you so very much for taking the time out of your busy, busy day to hang out in my crib and be a part of this. that I'm still figuring out, but I appreciate you sharing time with me. Thank you for welcoming me you into your home and yeah, before recording, this is one of the more sophisticated sets I've been on for the the podcast, so I love it. Really? Yeah. That's shocking. The barrier to entry to podcasting is not very high. So you know, this there's but like you I think that that's where a little bit of care and attention and and intentionality behind it. Here you are. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. I I think The barrier is extremely low and there's sort of like the the memes about like everyone and their mother having a podcast. My my neighbor actually I'm curious to get your take on this. So I'm gonna share a little tidbit before we get cracking. She walked around back because she got a piece of my mail, rang the doorbell, and she was like, Anthony, I think I have your mail. And my roommate hadn't met her yet. So they were introducing each other and introducing themselves to each other. And she asked asked me like what I do. And I I really struggle with that question because I don't, and my roommate and I were talking about this today too. I don't love how that question of what you do, the assumption that's baked into that is what do you do professionally? And more specifically, what is it that you do professionally that generates income for you? And then you can take it a step further and say, what is the one way that you generate income? And I think there's part of the the whole gist of this podcast is like trying to break away from that mold generally and understanding that there doesn't have to be One job. There doesn't have to be, you know, a full-time job. It can be a bunch of hobbies and part-times and whatever the hell it is that can create, you income and generate wealth for yourself and your family. but she asked me what I'd do, and I was like, Well, what do you mean? Like to make money or whatever. And I said that I was a podcaster, and she kind of laughed and she was like, you have you heard that song? Like, let's go start a podcast with my sister. Someone's like, I don't know what song you're talking about, but Everyone has a podcast. And it's tough for me to say I'm a podcaster because I feel like everyone does it, largely because the hurdle's so low. Yeah. But exactly to your point, I think there's a difference between sitting down and having a casual conversation and shooting the shit with your friend and you know, having it filmed and recorded whilst doing so versus going in with the intention to what is the purpose of this? What is the goal that we're trying to, you know, achieve here? how can I help you? How can you help me? How can we create, especially being local in Denver, both of us, how can we strengthen this Denver ecosystem and this Denver sort of health, wellness, entrepreneurial community? going into it with that mentality really does, you know, it doesn't take a whole lot. Also, all this shit I bought on Facebook. So It's well and that the the benefits of everyone having a podcast is there's a lot a lot of former podcasters as well. And you get to pick up the scraps there. No, I I mean like yourself. Exactly. If I had anything to sell, you would have it from a podcasting standpoint.

no, it's i it's interesting, like the the word you've used is ambiguous. And I think when I when I think about, you know, and we'll we'll dive into like my my beverage brand and whatnot, but like nuance is such an important thing for me that I think the world is systematically trying to stamp out is like you can't be a nuanced person. You are in a box. You are A or B, black or white, you know, like everything. And so I think, I think all of the best things in life live in a a nuanced, ambiguous space. And yeah, I think it's wonderful that you are choosing to shed a light on that for other people. I think it's something that speaks really strongly to me. I I feel like the I love the the notion of, you know, put being put in boxes and like I think of a lot of things are off the shelf and I personally don't find many things off the shelf that I like. In fact, tomorrow I pretty much exclusively purchase on marketplace or create myself. Yeah. like I was just sharing the little poster that'll eventually be behind Sam's head. Visualize behind my head. Yeah. Just imagine there's a a poster on the wall. and I was go to my buddy's farm. He's got a multiple table saws, lots of stuff to work with, and just gonna pick up some nice plywood from Home Depot and build some shelving. but I I feel like off the shelf in general has never been something that's worked for me. and I was listening to, I believe this came up at your in your episode prior podcast where you were a guest, not to be confused with the podcast you have, which I just found out today. So I kinda wanna hear about that, but we'll get back to it. Yeah. but you touched on how you felt like there was a calling. In fact, I think I have a a direct quote that I I'll I'll reference. yeah, you were talking about how when you were working in nine to five, you really enjoyed taking the salary, you enjoyed spending the weekends and taking vacations, but you felt this passion to do something different. So you came from this off the shelf job, but you felt something inside of you, some calling, some whatever. So my question here is what specifically Did you feel? What was it that you were experiencing in your body where you understood this is not right for me?

You really did your research on me. I the way that I would put it is, you know, and and so I I wor was working in nine to five, I've had several different, you know, corporate jobs. and what I found in doing those is I am really good at playing a role. Like I at every corporate job that I've had, I have been seen by the powers that be as a top performer. Right. Like in in Both in my, you know, in a sales role, the amount of revenue I generated, but also like being a corporate employee. Like I just I I found myself very good at at, you know, playing that role for that for that team and for that organization, for whomever. And what I found and like the feeling that it was was when the like the need to perform wasn't there. it would be like a progressively deeper and deeper hole that I would find myself in that like when you know I was home alone or, you know, having like a a flight home from a trip that I went on to go visit friends and partied all weekend and and even in in that instance sometimes I feel like I was playing the role of like the f the successful, fun, you know, like exciting friend to be around. And like when I would be a by myself, it would be like this kind of like sinking feeling inside. This you know, in and I'm I'm struggling to because I don't want to just put it in a box because we just talked about that. But like the you know like a I think like a textbook definition of despair, right? Like I just kind of felt this hopelessness isn't the right word, but it was like I I why does ex succeeding at these roles that I'm doing. So I I think I'm playing this role and I'm doing it well. Like I'm getting rewarded. I am, you know, people like me, I'm making money, whatever. And then I progressively feel less comfortable with and like myself and as I go deeper into that. And so I think that was happening, you know, over years, right? Like a long a long time to the point where I finally did something where I felt like myself. And then when I last stopped doing it, I I did not feel that sinking feeling. I felt like an ascension of sorts. And it was ultimately getting to the point where it's like, I think I would die, like I'm I'm addicted to that. Let's go down that path as opposed to continuing to to oscillate back and forth between these other things. Yeah. And I would I would venture to say that you probably did well in high school, middle school, high school, college, all of that. Yeah. Fairly well. Yeah. And in like, yeah, I was never like the best student, but I was always like in the top grouping, you know? Yeah. I hear you. I Sam, our story's eerily similar. I grew up with one older sister. You have two. Yeah. Correct. My sister went to UGA. I went to Georgia Tech. So similar like in state schools, it's just what you did. You went to University of Illinois. Am I correct? And then my first ever it was my last internship, which turned into my first ever full time job was actually KPMG. Big four. Look at that. and then after that went into tech, did not do sales, did software engineering. Yeah, yeah. but did that and found myself in a similar place where I was just like, What am I doing? Yeah. Like On paper, you actually brought up the concept of on paper things looked, you know, great. You did well on paper, but not in reality. And I really like that dichotomy and that framing of like paper, you know, is not really what tells the whole story. Totally. Yeah. No, I d I mean interesting the the the similarities and progression. Did did those jobs happen in Denver or did you move here afterwards? None of them were in Denver. Yeah. Denver was my

A bit of an escape. I went on quite a few little solo quests and one of them I found myself ending my multiweek van trip in Denver. Did some national park touring. ended up here and I was like, I can do everything I want here. Yeah. and the thing that keeps me here is the creative, like cr I don't even know how to how to frame it, but the amount of creatives, artsy people. Entrepreneurs here. It's a very different flavor of entrepreneurship than Atlanta. Atlanta is very much you're chasing the golden ticket. You're going for VC funded businesses and entrepreneurial opportunities. It's all like high growth tech startups. Denver is entrepreneurship hardstop, whatever that means to you. I love it. It's forging your own path. That is something that I feel is very unique to this place compared to a lot of other more like entrepreneurial. cities across the US because you spend some time in the Bay Area. Totally. That's a c very different flavor. It is well and the way that I like to describe it too is like I feel like Denver is one of the few places where there's it's not a default choice for people. and I by that I mean like Chicago is the default choice for people that grow up around Chicago. Everyone in the mid na midwest just natural just gravitates towards there. San Francisco, the default place for anyone who wants to be in software. Like that's where you go. In Denver, I feel like there's nothing there's no like profession that can only exist here. But so that means everyone that lives here just chose to do what they do here. And I think it's a creates a really interesting environment and and I think, you know, I've I've lived here for over five years now, but it's definitely like very early in my in my time living here, I noticed that like the standard the the level of happiness for the average person was so far above everyone else. And it was because I think as simple as like I chose to be here. Like I could be in a lot of different places, but I chose to be here. And that that like shift in mindset in in what brought people to live here just and the fact that it's three hundred days of sunshine also helps. But yeah, like there's a level of happiness that that I don't think exists in most other like major cities. Yeah, I think touching on like agency. If you have agency over your life, you're gonna feel so much happier, you're gonna feel so much better. And to have the agency to move here, I was I was connecting with a friend yesterday, ended up stumbling upon a running group. I hate running. You imagine r I think running is the worst thing in the world. I I love wheels. Yeah. You can see my diagram of all the skates the behind me. I like I bikes, motorcycles, anything with wheels, I feel like why do we use our feet when we got, you know, these amazing inventions. But I ran into a buddy and he was sharing why he moved to Denver and he was supposed to take a job in D C and ended up like, Well, I'm I'm just gonna spend, you know, maybe two months in Denver, then I'll move to D C and they're like, That's okay, that's fine. A week in he's like, I'm not going back to D C. You either take me a Denver as a remote worker or I'm Quitting and they're like, No, you can work remote. And so so many people find their ways here. And I l I love that framing. really quick, another thing that I picked up on that I think is just hilarious, the guy ras how I built this episode with Herb Kelleher at Southwest. I remember like listening to that episode and just like, whoa, this is crazy. Cause I think too, like an airline compared to tech startups, co such a different, like their margins are razor thin. Yeah. Right. And so hearing him talk about like how that is fundamentally such a different business than LinkedIn, you know, or or whatever. but yeah, I just I I was reading through my notes and I was like, that is so wild that we yeah, that we we share that that similarity as well. Yeah. d and I think how I built this, I don't know sounds that's one of your podcasts that you like to listen to as well, but not so much anymore actually. Same. It was it was very much, you know, it's it's so my first year living in San Francisco is 2015 Which was the year that How I Built This came out. Okay. So I moved to San Francisco. I was in this like startup entrepreneurial just epicenter and listening to a podcast, it was like the first time I even heard humans talk about entrepreneurship and kind of realized, you know, that was like a lot of times I kind of attribute like my second software company to be when my like entrepreneurial like light switch went on. But I really think it was like listening to how I built this and just being like, these are people that are just like Trying to figure out a way to to live life that and to your point, like outside of the norm. They didn't they're rejecting the the the off the shelf version and choosing to figure something else out and you know, as evidenced by Herb Kelleher being like, you know, why don't I just give everybody a bottle of Jack Daniels when they buy a Southwest ticket? I'm like, that's freaking what? Yeah. I didn't know that you can't do that. What? So very, very cool. Yeah. I I true, 'cause I mean we we sort of assume rules that just simply aren't there. Yeah. No one said you can't give people a bottle of Jack Dennis. No one said you can't you can how do I frame this? No one said that an airline has to assign seats. Mm-hmm. They've obviously switched their policy now, but you know, RIP herb killer as well. But yeah, it's it's I think there's a lot of assumptions that we have baked in.

What is entrepreneurship to to you? What does that mean? Entrepreneurship to me means Creating the world that you wish you lived in today. Beautiful. I just came up with that on the spot. I don't know. Good. I don't want you to think. I want you to react. Yeah. That was that's my reaction. Love it.

Well, now it's time to talk about the brand. Let's talk about Hazlo Okay. yeah, Hazlo Brand in front of the camera. Here we are. that is my my beverage brand. It's a, you know, delicious, refreshing non-alcoholic seltzer that we just came out with a new flavor, which we'll bring in front of here too, the or last month. but yeah, I've been doing it for full t like it's been a full time commitment of mine for the last five and a half years. and It's gone through many different iterations and and definitely trying to to figure out our way to navigate this world, but like the most the most fun I've ever had is how I would describe that business is is the most fun I've ever had. Wow. Across other professional opportunities or across anything? I think, and maybe this is looping back to like the question of, you know, what is entrepreneurship and like the yes this is the product and business and you know, the the professional thing that I am doing. And it by the byproduct of that has been a complete personal evolution of of understanding myself and figuring out who I want to be in the world that I would not have had had I not created this. So the most fun I've ever had period. Love that.

Do you believe in destiny? Yes. Okay. I believe yes, comma. Yes, comma. I believe in destiny. I believe in I don't believe in things being preordained. So like it's it is a it is a Destiny is something that you need to make intentional effort efforts towards, but it is always available to you. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I'm getting jazzed just hearing you talk about it because I think when I think about this podcast, I don't think about this being my get going back to what we were talking about earlier, like this isn't how I would describe my profession because it's so much bigger than that. It's like this is really just a step towards a much broader vision that I have. And I feel like it's going to unlock some amazing opportunities. And I don't know what those are quite yet, but I'm really excited to find out. So with that said, what is the broader, larger vision of

Hazlo and and and how does how do you plan to to get there? Well it's an interesting time for you to ask me that question because I think as of the last like ten days the I have reoriented the bigger picture to see Hazlo not as like the sun, but as one of like the planets orbiting the sun. And the sun being kind of I don't know, I'm still trying to figure out words, but I guess the the the reason for that is I f absolutely love and adore this brand that I've built. And I have seen that we in it we talked about the Amazon piece. Like the right now we are selling primarily on Amazon, which is something that five and a half years ago literally not even a thought in my brain, like let alone a year ago. but this this brand and product that I kinda saw as, you know, this mainstay in culture beverage brand that I was building is kind of becoming almost like my my f like the firstborn of of this thing that I love to do. And it is very much still like growing and very much a central piece of my life. And I am in the process of like having a couple other children to to to go too deep on the analogy. Yeah. and so I like I think some dwarf planets. Yes, exactly. but I like the I guess like the if I reflect on this process, like one of the things that I've been doing a ton of this year and we talked about like Growth Circle and Taylor, like and Christine the the conversations I have with them is really reflecting on like myself and this business and you know, I guess what is it that le what is It that lights me up and what is it that I'm doing out of obligation? And being a solopreneur with this, I'm doing everything for the business. And very clearly, either I'm not that good at some stuff and I or I don't really enjoy doing some pieces of it. And so I am in the process of moving forward with it where I get to do all the things that I love to do and have other people do all the things that I, you know, am not as good at. And I can I'm in the process of potentially doing that with a few other businesses, products, you know, opportunities. so that was a very long way to answer your question of what is the ultimate vision is like I the way that I would say it is I think what Hazlo represents to me is The the word Hazlo means do it, right? And it was a it was a word that I found when I was in my most kind of confused state of life of ex succeeding in this preordained way. And I had this like gnawing feeling of like, what if I did this drink instead? And it was like that's finding that word sent me on the path. And while it's been very Up and down, you know, as every entrepreneurial journey has been, I've noticed every element of my life improving. Like everything from my relationships with my friends to my family, my mental health, my physical health, like all of it is improved. Beautiful. And I credit a lot of it to this brand and product, right? And like the way that that brand and product evolved was it started as a tequila mixer. And as I myself Tried to become a better version of myself, the product evolved to be the thing that the better version of myself wanted. And so that's kind of pulling us all the way through to today. And I think this product will re continue to be the highest version of myself's desire. And I get to see different like formations of that and maybe different products and different businesses at the same time. Totally. It sounds like at some points you were the chicken and Hazlo was the egg and then vice versa, it kind of flipped around and that that continual, you know, balance and continuous balancing act is what was enabled both the business to take off and you personally to kind of take off and chase that destiny. can you walk me through actually real quick question. Where Hazlo, Spanish so

Yeah, the conjugation of Hacer Were you in a Spanish speaking country when that came to you? Were you I was not. No, I mean I spent in I think I took thirteen years of Spanish. are you fluent? no. I like I w draw me into like I went to Colombia last year and you know, if I'm if I'm in a Spanish speaking place, I'm I get I fall back into it very quickly, but I do not speak Spanish enough at home. I actually like when I f when I moved to Denver, one of my roommates was Venezuelan. So we had beautiful we had we had like Spanish only Wednesdays where every Wednesday we only spoke Spanish to each other. It was awesome. That's awesome. so that was really fun. That was that was probably like the most comfortable I was in the States. But no is I mean it had much more to do with the tequila connection. Okay. And so I you know this is 2018. I basically like I think like many people when I went through the process of like I should probably drink less alcohol, you know, or like maybe I'd be more intentional about it. Tequila is kind of like the thing that you go to 'cause somehow their marketing has it so that everyone thinks that that's a healthiest form of alcohol, even though it's still alcohol. but I became very, very enamored with tequila and like, you know, went so far as to becoming a Somalier of tequila and like having a very, you know, sophisticated palate. but that coupled with my like Spanish you know, the the the the presence of Spanish in my life. when I was coming up with a I spent a lot of time trying to come up with an English word for a brand name and nothing stuck. And it was just like was whatever. And then I started thinking about different Spanish words. And it was actually like while I was at the gym one time, I was like, Hazlo, do it. And I got like full body, full body chills. And you know, like the like most people when you come up with a name, you sprint home to like search it on the web, like does this exist? And like no business was called Hazlo at that time. So it was kind of like a That felt a l that felt like a destiny moment to go back to an earlier question. But yes, love that.

okay. I want to hear the story. So walk me back however many years it takes to the earliest seed of Hazlo and then how did that blossom into what it is today? Yeah. So I think, you know, like w we're back in San Francisco. I'm working in the software space, I'm listening to how I built this, and I've kind of got this just I think this you know, there's a lot of you know, drawbacks on San Francisco. One of the things that San Francisco provided that I that I don't know exists anywhere else to this degree is like the idea that anything is possible. Like it is just a it is a collection of human beings that fully embrace the idea of like we could change the world tomorrow if we just like come up with the right idea. So I'm like in this space and I'm working at a very small startup where, you know, a room not too much bigger than this one. We had 19 employees in there and just like trying to make something happen. And I was able to be build like a really good relationship with my CEO who sat across from me, closer than we're sitting right now. And I just got to see him like running a business. And I'm like, that's dope. Like that what he's doing over there is what I wish I was doing. Like I don't want to be focused on this. You talk about like being in a box. Like I don't want this like very preordained, you know, job description that it's what I do every day. I wanna like make decisions. I want to hire people. I want to like set the vision. I want to plan an off site trip that s revolves around how we're building our culture. Right. There's just like so many different layers of of it that sound that that like grabbed me. And so that is happening. I'm like, okay, what would my business be? And I started just like every day. I was living with a buddy of mine. And every day we would just talk about like different business ideas we had. And one of the things that I, you know, the the to go back to like the San Francisco thing is like anything is possible. And because of that, everyone kind of acted like they were changing the world. And I was like, I think you're just like building a better CRM, dude. Like, I don't know if this is actually gonna like help anybody necessarily. so I had this like this kind of aversion to that thinking of like, let me just like put a little code in here. And you like the South Park episode of like eight, you know, we build the thing, question mark, we just become really rich and the worlds change. and so I started thinking more of like my everyday. problems that I had right. And I I mentioned earlier that, you know, I was like in this place of like unhappiness. And I kind of I didn't have the words for it at the time, but I I realized that a huge piece of it was like drinking alcohol. And not to the point where like I necessarily had a problem, but it was just the alcohol was one of the most present things in my life. If we went out to, you know, went out to dinner, or if I took a client out to, you know, have a have a meeting, if I visited any friends, like everything was centered around alcohol. And I kind of was like, maybe this is a thing that I need to like adjust and and have a different relationship with. So I have that kind of like kernel of a thought. I go visit a friend of mine in New York and we you know, s do exactly what we would always do, which is just like go out in New York, have a have the hell of a time. But earlier in that day, that's where like the tequila thing came up. And one of my co-workers at the time was just casually asked me a question of like, what's your what's your favorite drink? And I'm like, I don't know. Like I think I probably said like a whiskey ginger or something. Like I was like a very, you know, twenty-four-year-old person trying to and so I asked him and he was like a tequila soda. And I'm like, what? Do people what? Do people drink it? Ellectively drink it. That sounds awful. And he goes on to tell me all these like reasons why. And he was like 30, right? So he was a couple years older. He's like, my hangovers have gotten worse. There's not as much sugar. and like tequila is because it's made out of agave, it's actually like a better for you upper, right? Like it doesn't have the same depressive principles or or characteristics as all other alcohol does. So anyway, I had that like Says I mean it's very interesting. I told like asked my friend who I was staying with late later that day, and he was like, yeah, we d that that's people drink that here all the time. I'm like, interesting. So we as as one does, called it market research and spent a day drinking tequila sodas. And and you know, I I still remember being on this like street in Manhattan walking down, and I think I saw a billboard for like it was white claw or truly, and I'm like it hit me that I'm like people think that that's actually good for them. And I'm like, they're literally drinking malt liquor. Like how does someone like that's crazy? Like eventually the world will have to figure out that like White Claw and Trulie are like horrific for you. Like it's literally like drinking a Colt forty five but in a better can. and I was like this like well we this tequila soda thing like this seems real. Like this is like actual there's actual reason to why this might be better for you. And it wasn't a fully formed to the point of like, you know, what we have here today, but it was this idea that like I could make something that was actually good better for someone and I think there was a market for it. So that was like that happened May I actually know the exact day, May nineteenth, twenty eighteen was like the day that that occurred and kicked off this like, you know, this process where I went home, told some people about it and like every single day I found myself returning to thinking about this. this idea of this like drink, this elusive thing. And so I kind of, you know, had a couple of friends and w one of them was the the guy that I visited there, another was my buddy in San Francisco. And we just started like talking once a week and think, what is this gonna be? How are you know, what would we do here? And so I kind of it it was the old this was the first idea I've ever had that I couldn't stop thinking about. And so that's ultimately became the thing that I chose to to pursue all the way through. Mm. Yeah. If you can't stop thinking about it, it's probably an indication that you should probably put some energy into there. Totally. yeah. So that's that that that was a very early and it took like it was a year and a half before I ever had like an actual product to hold. it was three years before I sold anything, right? So we didn't actually like like sell any product until 2021. But that was the that was where where it all kicked off from. Yeah.

so in the process of, you know, creating this creating this business, there were a couple of I I was doing some research, listening to some podcasts, and the the concept of decision making came up. So obviously as the owner operator of a business, you have to make a lot of decisions. And you said something that stuck out to me, which is you're addicted to making decisions. I have the opposite. I feel like there's I have an aversion of decision making. And I I would bet that most people are that way. So for people like myself out there who are struggling to make decisions, find ourselves in decision paralysis often, what would you recommend to start to shift their mindset a little bit more towards your mentality of like, no, decisions are the things that, you know, ultimately lead to success, therefore make the decisions. That's a Yeah. And then like I wanna like amend what I said because like the the decision making is not what I'm addicted to. I think I'm addicted to forward progress. And I think what I what I learned through it was the thing that impeded my forward progress was not making the decision. And whenever I made a decision, something occurred. and yeah, I mean this has absolutely not been my my state forever, right? Like I've I definitely have spent many of years of my life kind of in either, you know, procrastination or, you know, paralysis around making big decisions. I think this is like a learned skill and learned behavior. but but for, you know, if I if I could talk about maybe like what got me to start realizing that decisions were good. I don't know if there's like a a moment, but I I I r have like these like memories of like cleaning my room, right? Or like needing to clean up or make my bed. And you know, I think if I go back to like my early twenties, I was someone who just like I thought the goal in life was to be able to get to the point where you just like got to relax and exhale. Mm-hmm. And I would do I would take any shortcut I could to get to that point of exhale. So that's maybe like I throw something out and it misses the trash and I'm like, I don't need to go pick that up or, you know, I need to Like I'm gonna go home and make my bed. I'm like, but I'm gonna get in the bed tonight anyway. Why the why would I make my bed to unmake my bed later? Like that doesn't make sense, right? So it's like I think I spent so many years looking for those shortcuts around doing that extra thing. And what I've what I realized is like all that kind of like postponing would do is it would make that a problem later. Like it didn't solve any problems, it just made a problem later. And This is like the I started to realize that if I just did the thing right then, I would be able to I would be free from it. Like there would be no looming thing over my head. and so I think it's like, you know, I'm I'm like a I'm a weirdo who wakes up before five AM to go to the gym, right? And I never, never snooze my alarm. Like ever. And not to say that I always get out and like I've sometimes I'll set my alarm later and stuff, but Like for some reason I I I I was able to program myself that like if I snooze my alarm, that means I'm just gonna have to wake up later. And like I'm not gonna I'm not gonna go back to sleep probably. Like there's gonna be no not very much rest. So instead it's like an act now thing. And so I think I I I I realized that I procrastination or delaying decision just compounded issues later. And if I attacked them head on in the moment, I would be past them. And that is actually what I thought was getting me to the the exhale relaxation was only actually ensuring that I never got there. And so instead doing the thing that I didn't want to do is what got me to the point of like feeling relieved at at a later date. Understood. I think a lot of people struggle with decisions for fear of, you know, quote unquote making the wrong decision. Totally. And I think that's a that in and of itself is kind of I I I think misses the mark on what decisions are all about and like how you should understand The point of a decision, right? The point of a decision isn't necessarily that you get it right or that what you anticipate will happen is what happens, because it's pretty uncommon that what you anticipate happens is the way that life pans out. Yeah. So what are some of the most glaring examples of decisions you made that turned out to be the wrong decision, yet led you down the right path? I'll bring up another example outside of my business, but like launching a tequila mixer brand, like that was the product that I launched, which was absolutely the wrong product, right? But I did it and was able to learn from it and realize like I think that like I got real data that would be able to inform the right decision. And I think that's the the problem with trying to get the right thing is like you have no information most of the time. You're just like guessing. Yeah. It's assumptions. And it's all assumptions and like you're you're grading yourself in the moment based off of a future thing that you know nothing about. And so just like the the decision to launch the business and turn it on was such a significant thing for me that I got in, I figured out that it wasn't right. And so like I was able to pivot and evolve through it. But I also think, you know, like moving this is one, like moving back to Chicago from San Francisco. So I was living in San Francisco and it was actually like around the time that I came up with the idea for the drink. And there's a a lot of com you know things occurring at that time that made me be like, I I don't think I'm supposed to live here anymore. But my first niece was born. And so my family was like it was a big moment in my family, and I was like, you know what? I got this drink idea. It'd be good for me to like save some money and not, you know, live in San Francisco and travel everywhere all the time. And so I made the decision to move back to Chicago. And that was made for all the right reasons. But as soon as I got back there, the th the thing that I didn't do was save money and work on this business idea. I had to spend a lot of time with my family. And the things that I did do was spend all of my money traveling around to the country and drinking all the time, right? And just like being falling into these really bad habits and this in in kind of like rejecting it. So but that going through that allowed me to see that like I I I think I so I left Chicago the first time and a lot of that was I thought was a sign of like waving the white flag. Like I had this job in Ernst Young that I hated and I couldn't like I just couldn't get myself to do. And so I kind of like escaped to San Francisco. And It ended up being the best thing that I could have done and like a really great decision for in every category of life, but it kind of felt like I I gave up on it. And when I got went back to Chicago and I had that, you know, the first year of kind of like doing everything second year, pandemic hits, right? Like and I so I had this like this realization that maybe I'm not supposed to live in Chicago. Like I think maybe my my I'm here for the right reasons, but I don't think that this is where I'm supposed to be. To become the best version of myself. And so that was like a, you know, I made that decision, got more information, made a different decision and got down the path. Yeah. Cause I I think we're an impatient breed and we want the answer. I I'm impatient. This is out. How old are you, if you don't mind me asking? 30. Okay. Okay. How old are you? I was curious to ask, but I was like, I don't know if I really want to ask. I'm 34. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Roughly the same age. yeah, I s I'm impatient as hell. And I am I think one of the reasons why I find myself in decision paralysis is because I think deep down I know that the choice I make is probably not the actual answer. which is kind of like that's so hi it's it's it's not hypocritical, but it's it's kind of counterintuitive or paradoxical. That's the word for it. It's it's kind of a paradox that like I want the answer. I want to figure it out and I know that I have to take this necessary step and yet I'm still struggling to take that step because it's going to point me in a closer direction to what I want. Can you give me an example of like a a decision that you've had paralysis around? yeah, I can. I can give you a lot of examples. Please. well, I think the first one is the name of this podcast. I mean, it took me I'm notoriously bad at naming things. It took me forever to just make that decision. what's a what's a good one? Quitting jobs, that's a classic. There's been a lot of jobs that I've like drudged through for six plus months longer than I should have. throwing in the t a lot of it I think actually comes into throwing in the towel, raising the right the white flag, as you said. And I think that that framing is part of the reason why it's like when you frame something as quitting, when you frame something as waving the white flag, you're sort of setting yourself up for failure because you are saying by doing this I am therefore failing, I'm quitting rather than framing it as I need to take a step away from this towards something that is more aligned. And I think that's probably one of the reasons why I'm like resistant to do the thing, or especially around like quitting, 'cause it feels like you're you're giving up versus taking A step actively in a direction that is more, you know, intentional. Yeah. No, and I ask because I think I also think that like you saying that you stayed six months longer than you should have. I know people that have stayed for sixteen years longer than they should have. And I think the there's there's there's nuance to what is what is delaying a decision because I think it's also You know, I'm not I'm not gonna sit here and pretend like I make decisions in the moment every time. Like it's like there are definitely things that I kick kick down the road every once in a while. but it's it's recognizing the pattern and like I th I w I would applaud you for in six months of unhappiness to be like, probably gotta get out of here. because there's that is I think that is rare in and of itself. And I think the a lot of people don't even won't even like acknowledge or take the time to look at the fact that they're unhappy or something's not working or whatever. Whether it's like a romantic relationship too, right? Like there's I think that that's a a really prevalent thing. And so I actually would challenge you to stop applying like telling yourself that you're bad at making decisions because I think that is a a story that's reinforcing behavior that maybe you don't want to to happen and like in reality like hey you do make decisions. You did decide. You started the podcast. You quit the job. You know, like you did the things that yeah. So I think just s spotlight on that of of you're not you're not as far down the path on the other direction as you think you might be. Thank you for the encouragement, Sam. I appreciate that.

yeah well and and and you touched on, you know, understanding your own happiness which take which takes an understanding of self. So how much of your you know, call it professional journey, but also personal journey has been catalyzed by introspection and your understanding of self. And what sort of practices do you use to deeper understand yourself? I would go so far as to say it is like the number one thing has been has been that for me. and, you know, I think if I going back to, you know, the alcohol piece that has come up a lot, like I It's even like been the last couple of years where I've like realized that that was all me escaping myself. Either escaping the job I didn't like, escaping the relationship I wasn't really happy in, escaping, you know, the the a place that was home that didn't really feel like home, you know, like all these different things. And I think that that was my way of r refusing to look at it. and when I finally was willing to, that's when things started to work out better for me in a lot of different places. But I I think like 2019 and 2020 is when I started really like leaning into the concept of personal development. So like listening to podcasts. and I just I I think I I had this like internal knowing without like calling it out that there was there was something that wasn't at peace inside. Like I needed to I needed to reconcile some things in order to be happy with myself in order to like be happy with life. and zero of those words were a part of my vernacular at that time, but like as I think but so I tr I tried everything. Like I did I did, you know, I would read a bunch of books. I would meditate all the time. I you know, try to like one of my jobs was in the South Bay, I would be on a train for twenty minutes, I would meditate every morning for twenty minutes on the train and I think a lot of it was me trying to do things that other people said helped them in some capacity. and it wasn't until I like myself Started just like seeing what pulled me. Yeah. and so one of the things that I that I did was I read this book called The Artist Way. I don't know if you've ever heard of it, but it's a it's a like a work book. And it's modeled after the twelve step program for Alcoholics Anonymous, but it's actually like a recovery program for your inner artist. So that's just like the thesis of everyone is an artist and society and our parents or whatever feed us things that make us not believe that we're artists and this is a process of uncovering it. And the two things that are a part of it, it's a lot of different, you know, prompts and questions and stuff, but every single week you take yourself on an artist date, which is basically just like doing something that like nourishes the soul, right? so that I would go to like stand up comedy or I would go out to like an Italian restaurant by myself, that type thing. but the other piece was you had to journal every day. This thing called morning pages. And so it was three pages, stream of consciousness, go. And up until that point I had tried journaling a ton. Like I really like that was like a one of the things that I rotated through in many different times. And I remember journal like I would sit and look at my journal and I'm like, I don't know what I'm supposed write? Like what? Like I d like this is like I don't I d I don't know how to how does how does one just write that type of thing. Yeah. And what this encouraged you to do was like the thing you write is I don't know what to write. And like it it's like whatever thought comes into your brain, that meets the criteria of sh is worthy of being put on the page. and that was one of the most freeing things for me ever, to the point where, you know, we're probably it's probably been four years since I read that book and I've journaled ninety nine point eight percent of days in that in that capacity. and I think that that has been journaling I credit with the vast majority of my self acceptance of who I am as a person and on it through that, like creating self confidence that is not rooted in external validation, but just like who I am and and how I show up on on a daily basis. so that is journaling I would say is like the number one thing, but through that kind of like and and I guess how I discovered journaling is through just like kind of like an inner curiosity and allowing myself to like try the different things, And the curiosity was primarily just like listening to podcasts and listening to other human beings talk about their journeys to figuring themselves out and what do they do and try that. and so yeah. Yeah. There that reminds me of the book The Creative Act by Rick Rubin. Fantastic. Yeah. And I mean, they both I think are touching on the reality that we are intrinsically creative beings, yet the world seems to shave that away from us over the years. And it's a shame. But I think you know, that's something that

I I try to play saxophone every week. I have a yeah, I have a to do list on my phone that has a couple of repeated tasks and one of them every week is just creative outlet. and I have a couple of options. I tend to go to I've been thinking about some t shirt designs, so I'll scrabble scribble some T shirt designs out. I'm not a I'm not an artist, so they're they're they're hack jobs, but it'll get me there at least. Everybody's an artist. Yeah, I should not say that. I yeah, true. I think I I think When it comes to like like visual art that I am drawing with a pencil, I recognize I am not the best. But I do agree. Yeah. Like I I hear what you're saying and I appreciate it. and yeah, everyone is an artist. I I don't think that you were to you know I know I I want to present these ideas as like, hey, this is kind of like my best visualization of like the ideas that are happening up here to someone who's a designer who can make them come to reality. You know? Cool. Which is music your primary I'd say so. Cool. Yeah. I'd say another like creative outlet is actually like skating if I'm like listening to music and trying to flow a little bit more. not hockey, but just like rollerblading and stuff.

I'd also say snowboarding is a big one. especially when it's later on in the day and I'm getting tired and so I'm not going after some of the harder runs, but I'm just trying to like figure out my flow and like through the mountain. That's that's a big sort of creative outlet. That's one I gravitate towards as well. I yeah, there's a there's a time of my life where I loved, you know, backcountry through the trees and like it you know, I still enjoy it, but like the times I have the most fun snowboarding are when I'm on some like, you know, blue or black and Just like vibing. And like I got a sick song in my my headphones and I'm just going and that's yeah. So that's are you icon or epic? Yeah. I'm I've been epic. So this is the the year before I moved here, I had 22 days on the mountain. Okay. I have not snowboarded more than five times a year since then. since moving here. Since moving here. Really? Why is that? You know, and these are all excuses. So I if I I could I could make it happen. But I with the with the beverage brand, like a lot of my time building it was doing events on the weekends. And so when all my friends would be going to the mountains and skiing, I would be doing that. And so my only times snowboarding the first couple of years was like I would go up on a random Tuesday by myself, right? and I think I had a lot of I had a lot of guilt in a lot of guilt at that time around taking a day off from building my business when it wasn't at the level that I thought v you know, validated a reason to to take a day off. Which is so dangerous because you're never with that ment, you're never gonna reach a point where you're at a level that you can take a day off. So I and I think that's probably what's made it difficult for me to restart. and and or I guess like, you know, I I've j recently realized that that's been a a a core feeling and problem. So I'm I'm working through that right now. Cool. well if you need someone to encourage you to fuck off to the mountains on a weekday, I got you. My guy but and on top of that and it's like, you know, the other piece was like a after a while it's also like, man, I've got finite resources right now. Like I could this could be something I use to take my wife out to dinner or Yeah. Yeah. I'm spending you know X amount of dollars on an epic pass for the season. So but it still it honestly has made me appreciate like snowboarding so much more than I did when I was taking it for granted. Beautiful.

Well then maybe it was it all happened the way it should have. Yeah. You know, you took some time away. I did that with hockey. I took quite a few years I played club in college and then afterwards I quit for I don't know if I quit's the right word, but I just didn't put any energy towards it. I would skate maybe once a year with my parents, like over the holidays, we'd go to an ice rink and fuck around. but then when I got back to it I was like I'm legitimately I think I work harder on the ice now than I did when I was playing like competitively in high school. Yeah. I had a lot more going for me of youthfulness when I was y young, so I was way better back then. But I I genuinely think I am actually trying harder in a beer league than I was in high school because I care a lot more and I think that break really helped. I feel that so deeply in that like I was very athletically gifted when I was younger and I don't think I ever gave one hundred percent effort at any point in my like competitive sports career. And to the point where like it kinda like as you can tell, it's like kinda like makes me sick a little bit when I think about it in the terms of the the the things that I left on the table. Yeah. For, you know, whatever reason. and so now, not to say like I I'm a hardo, but but but like, you know, this this we were talking about like the basketball run that I play with sometimes, it's like I'm giving consistent, really good effort all the time. Yeah. and it's also some of it's just like I I think I threw getting to know myself or pushing myself in these different ways, I've realized that I have capacity for way, way more than I ever gave myself credit for. And this playing a pick up basketball game like a way to express that in some capacity. Do you ever play at Wash Park? I have I actually never played a Wash Park. Okay. I pretty good pick up. Yeah. Yeah, it's pretty good.

all right. I wanna go back a little bit away from sports, back to creativity. Okay. you shared the vision of the brand on CJ's podcast, and you drew a parallel between Hazlo and Red Bull. I don't want to spill the beans. I'd like to hear it from you, but before I ask you to share that, is that still in alignment before we go down that path with kind of your vision? I think Yes. Like probably even more so than I was able to articulate at that time when when CG when I was on the podcast with CJ. yeah, I can I I just I can hop in in terms of the just take up what I take it. I see I see Red Bull as like the the productization of energy, right? Like it's just it represents energy, both as a brand, as a product, as a you know, the entire ethos, everything is around amping up in energy. And what I see, you know, our product is this like refreshing herbal tea with ginkgo baloba and magnesium glycinate and raw honey, right? So it's a very different form factor than Red Bull. And what I've found both from my own internal work but also from this product that I've had is like the the thing that this gives me is presence. and so I see like very similarly representing a word and in this embodiment and you drink it and you feel something but in and where and Red Bull's all about amping up and kind of like being a catalyst to go do things. which you know the irony. Yeah, the irony there, right? and that that's like the actually like the layer deeper of is like like actually you're good right here. You you as you are are fantastic. You don't need anything else. This is a reminder. and that I think is like I'm actually just realizing the irony there of the the full circle moment, but like the The idea that the best version of myself was out there somewhere. I needed to go do it in order to get there, only to return back and be like, I was here all the whole time. I love that. Yeah, I'm I w I've consumed so much material lately. I am tr struggling to remember if this was a book or a podcast I was listening to, but it was talking about how we often feel that identity is something we search for in the external world and we find it when in reality like our destiny or whatever we're meant for is within us. We still must search for it, but it's already within. and I feel like that's kind of more similar to kind of what you're what you're what you're getting at here. It's like you don't have to go little little brief anecdote. I got to the point where I was so thirsty to discover myself. I traveled halfway across the world to live in Australia for a year because I was like, I don't know who I am. I'm gonna go there. And then I realized like I mean, it was worth it, but like wasn't providing the answers I was looking for because the external answers were not really there. Yeah. They were here. And and I think it was necessary for you to go to Australia because you gotta you have to figure out where the answers aren't. Yeah. Before you can figure out where they are. And I think that's I think about this so much in terms of my like professional career is like everyone's like, What do want to do? I'm like, I only know what I don't want to do. Like every step of the way, I only am learning things that I have have an aversion to And it's just like a stripping away, stripping away the whole way. And I feel like that's it for, you know, who like who am I not? And as soon as I the more times I'm able to app like figure out who I'm not and categorize that and allow the fact that I am everything else that's left over is is the where I've gotten to know myself the best. Hundred percent. Alex Hormozi says that one of his like high school teachers said something to him that stuck with him for years, which is ninety nine percent of the work is finding what you want, one percent is getting it. Like that that is that hits hard. Yeah. Because I I I feel like the the tough work is in the discovery. It's in the understanding of like what do I want to aim for? and and maybe that's also because it's more it's it's in a way it's easier to go and chase something because there's like actionable steps. The discovery process is so nebulous, it's so confusing, it's unclear, you don't know where to look, you don't know how to look. It's it's just a yeah.

I wrote down a couple of words. I feel like if you have another brand, because I want to get back to this like kind of big picture, because this is stuff that this is the stuff that keeps me up at night is like the the notion of we have I feel like I've been conditioned to believe that I must find a career and that's an off-the-shelf job. and I think the more that I'm learning about the world and the way that it actually works, and the more that I've been beaten down by off the box job out of the off the shelf or out of the box jobs, whatever you want to frame it as, the more I see that doesn't really align with what I want. And I'm curious what sort of how like if you could paint a picture of sort of like the the dynamic world that you want to create for yourself through different brands, through different opportunities, through, you know, the health and wellness space, like, what does that art look like? Yeah. When I think about the things that I hate and I don't want to do, so much of it has to do with monotony in that it's the same thing every day. I think that that's like the guaranteed way for me to be unhappy is doing the same thing every day until the end. which is i I've committed myself to building a business every day, but that is the the reality of that changes in a moment's notice. so just to clarify When you say the same thing every day, like you set an alarm at four forty five every day, you journal every day, mm-hmm, you work out every day, yeah. Run nearly every day. How how does how do those two things fit within your your reality if you also detest monotony, yet you do the same thing every day? I think monotony and routine are two different things. Okay. What's that what's the difference? So I think those things that you just mentioned, which I do do, you know, I'll I every day might be a stretch, but most days. Sure. I those are the things that I have learned are the f are are the The precursors to me feeling like the best version of myself. And it's through a lot of trial and error of what has not worked, I realized these things, if I journal every day, I think better, I react better, I am in a better headspace overall. Done. If I exercise every day, I feel better, I have more sustained energy, I feel tired at the end of the day so I can go to sleep. Like it's just okay, boom. waking up early, it's like I If I wake up early and I do those things that I just mentioned and I'm able to be done with them by 7 30 in the morning when many people are just like waking up and beginning their day, it's like, man, I feel so like I'm the amount of energy I get from this thought of being ahead, not in like a I'm trying to beat other people in a competitive way, but it's just like a it's like a, you know, a momentum building thing for me. so those like that's kind of how I've created that criteria. But it's all all of that is the priming of myself to do not monotonous things. And I think the if if if what I did every day was, you know, and just to go back to like the software stuff, like if I what I was doing every day was sending cold emails and talking to prospects and trying to close deals. And that was like that is what I see as monotony. That monotony allowed like that eroded me from the inside to the point where I had no desire to do any of those like beneficial things for myself. But if I flip it and instead I'm doing the routine, then that gives me the freedom to kind of like, what is this expression going to be? And I I think the the the you know like being on this podcast today, you know, this is the middle of an afternoon conversation like I get because of the routine, I'm able to have permission to choose how the rest of the day unfolds. and I think to to like paint the picture of like where I'm going, it's like I what I found for myself, the consistent theme is I just like love connecting with humans. Like that is just like I get so much joy and energy out of like getting to know who you are on a deeper level and you know vibing out on that piece. And I think the the thing to to go to like the the Hazlo piece is like the thing that was was lacking is I didn't have anyone in it with me. Like it was all me and people that I would bring in, either from like a con you know, someone I would pay to help out with something or some friend who I would ask for a favor on. and I've I felt this like like gnawing feeling of I wanted to just like I wanted to be on a team again. Like I wanted to have people that are like in this with me. And so That has kind of been this like evolution of of some new ventures and opportunities that I'm that I'm building towards that all involve other human beings that I've gotten to know. Most of them I've met on my journey of building this business. but I'm I'm also realizing now that like this was building this business I needed to do so I could understand how I shouldn't build a business. And then the next time I get to do it is like gonna, you know, I get to do Everything in a way better way sooner. Whenever you build your next business, Nuance. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Like that's gotta be a name of something out there. Nuance is a good yeah. I the name the business that is the closest to being real is not named Nuance. But maybe we'll be that's I think if I were ever to to come up with a like my my consulting company or something. Well, you know, if I if I'm an advisor of people, Nuance is the name of it. Love it. Yeah.

What what it wait, were you about to share about a a business that's might be too you don't have to, no pressure, no pressure. It we'll put it this way. So I think I I alluded to the fact that it's like with people I've been incredibly fortunate to meet like genuinely what I believe to be some of the best human beings and also effective operators in the food and beverage world, both from you know founders to Just like just people, right? And the I've wanted to work with them for a long time and I've been very hamstrung by lack of resources for XYZ reason, right? And so I had a friend of mine who I met on this kind of approach me about this problem that he was trying to solve, which was he's a very, you know, high level personal trainer for some of like the, you know, some celebrities and very, you know, just like top tier people. and he was like, the only thing that they worry about right now is sleep and recovery. That is like the the thing that is consuming them all the time. And so he's like, I've been helping them with their nutrition, kind of focusing on these supplements that they can take. And it's just like kind of confusing because there's no consistency around like this is what you should take, this is what you shouldn't take. and when I give them these like seven, five to seven ingredients, it's like different powders and different supplements, whatever. So like there's No one is actually doing like checking the box to the level that they should. And so he's like, What I started doing in my kitchen was taking all the ingredients that I know for myself that make me recover the best, which is, you know, magnesium glycinate, tart cherry, L-theanine, GABA, ashwagandha, like the all these different things. And he's like, I'm putting it into this like protein bar of sorts with caseinate protein, so it's like easier on my stomach to digest. And he's like, I'm taking in a I get a hundred sleep score like 80% of the time right now. And I'm like, that sounds cool. He's like, I gave it to some of my clients, they are obsessed. And so anyway, so he was like, I have this thing. I have no idea how to like turn this into like a scalable product. And I'm like, that's one thing I've got. That's one thing I've done well. I've I've done a lot of things wrong, but I figured I've figured out how to make something taste good and make a lot of it at one time. and so anyway, so that's kind of like this this the thing that I've been working on for the last couple of months with him and and what's been so fun is it's allowed me to, you know, friends of mine who are really talented lawyers or friends of mine who run businesses that I really admire that I think that they are better at operating their business than I am at mine. And just like, hey, here's this thing that we're doing. Do you wanna come join? And so I've been able to the way I've been putting is like I'm assembling the Avengers to to create this new thing and yeah, it's we're you know We're getting another round of samples this week where it's not we don't have a a date. This is the another thing and and probably the reason for the hesitation. It's like I'm not it's like we're not like launching this tomorrow. Right. And I think I'm I'm allowing this to be play again. Like this is the the an the my my the the antidote to what might have been some monotonousness in my life, monotony in my life, is this that is just like fun and playing different and sh pops in and out of my life and is going to organically come come to be. and yeah, it's just so much fun. I forgot I'd like it's it's reminding me how much fun I have in the early stages of creation. Yes. Where it's just like it's just like it's literally like improv. It's yes and yes. Here's the thing we're trying to get to. Who knows how we're gonna get there. And it's just yeah, I'm having I'm having a lot of fun with it again. I love the framing of your pulling the Avengers together because I think I th like to think of myself as a as a connector and I'm relatively new to Denver. So it's been it's been a big hurdle for me to kind of overcome where I came from. I went to college in Atlanta. I was really active in the startup scene. And so when I would come across people like, I'm looking for such and such, or I've I've heard about this business that does X, I'm like, well, I happen to know the founder, like here's just information, I'll I'll connect you. and I haven't quite gotten there in Denver, but I'm starting to kind of pick up those connections, those relationships, and it's just so empowering and deeply meaningful to find a connection. Even if it's just one. If it's like, you're looking for X, here, let me help you. And like that fundamentally is the vision of the podcast. It's like if we can create a small, especially being so local with like pretty much exclusively interviewing Denver people. Yeah. Like there's obviously gonna be people that are gonna be able to help each other out. And like that's what it's all about. It's about creating an ecosystem of community and and helping people. Totally.

On that note, I'm curious to hear your take on community versus or maybe put differently, collaboration versus competitiveness. Competition. That's the word. Competition versus collaboration. And so the CPG space, consumer package goods, the beverage space is notoriously competitive and increasingly difficult to penetrate. You were able to do that. So I guess sort of two parts. Firstly, how were you able to penetrate what's notoriously an extremely competitive market. And then secondly, how do you sort of operate within the realm of competition, competing against, you know, for literally competing for shelf space? Amazon infinite shelf space, right? But you're about to be a natural grocer's if I remember correctly. you're presumably seeking some in person opportunities, some some in store space. That means you're going to bump someone else off the shelf. So how do you balance that sort of competition where you know that you have to attack a market with the amount of collaboration that is so core to you personally and to the brand? It's a diff you know, I think the the retail piece of it in particular where we are talking about shelf space and we are, you know, dealing with finite space for everyone. I think that has been one of my the more difficult things for me to kind of reconcile as I'm going through it. I I think what's interesting and in if I go back a couple of years to when I was first kind of like going from software into this, I f the CPG space and the beverage space was actually like so much more collaborative than the software space, especially from people who were all like in the game. and I think it was something as simple as like, you know, you're a HR like department and you need one software. Well, that's one person that g and everyone else loses. And so there's only one spot for that. sort of winner take all scenario. Exactly. And like this as simple as like, yes, there's finite space on the shelf, but the shelf has a lot of space. Lord, there's a lot of brands that are on that shelf. and so I think that that I saw that there was like this desire to help people and in in at the very least openly discuss how they're trying to solve the problems of like how do I grow this thing and and get it to the next level. And yeah, I definitely think that there's I lean collaboration. I like that's kind of my my ethos and I think Which sorry to interrupt, but I think that's also something that struck me about Denver. It's so much more collaborative culturally than say Atlanta. Or I think any big city in the East Coast or West Coast. I think they're much more competitive. It's about, you're doing a you know, a beverage brand. Well, I don't want to connect with you because you're in direct competition with me. Whereas out here it's like, you're in the health and wellness space, you're creating a beverage. brand, I'm creating a bar. How can we help each other? Yeah. So so different out here. Yeah, I th I mean it I think it's like it has more to do with the type of person who chooses to come like to go back to how we started this, right? It's like, you know, I chose to be here, you chose to be here. We have common ground. Yeah. And I think that there might that might not exist in the same way in other places. But yeah, I I I think for for me, and this is just kind of like an internal piece of it. Like I I believe so deeply in the law of reciprocity, just like karmically, you know. Yes. and I d I y this is like maybe a superstitious thing, but I think if I if somebody asks me for help and I intentionally choose not to because of fear that they might surpass me at some point, like I think s I I believe that I will be punished for that in some capacity later on, even if it's not losing or you know, I might beat to that whatever, like the the term might be. And so, I have made like a binary decision of like if if I'm able to assist somebody in something, like I'm gonna do it, you know? and so I think that that While there is competition involved, like it just is it's I I believe that I only want to win the competition if I'm able to do it by being collaborative. Mm. Yeah, I love that framing.

You mentioned that you love the the art of the start, and the creation. And another thing stuck out while I was researching you in depth. You said that software helped you believe that you could build something out of nothing. Yeah. That is the single thing that brought me to software I've always thought of myself as a creator, an inventor, something of that nature, and being able to have an idea and then now with Claude, you know, within a matter of minutes, it's in front of you. You know, you can play around with it, whatever. But before Claude existed, you know, days or months to build something and then see it, it's like this is the most beautiful thing. Like we we we have the ability to create our worlds. We have our the ability and the agency to create our realities. And I think too often we are told that we can't. We do not have any power to create what we want. And I think time and time again the the opposite is shown. Yeah. There's so much agency we have. We can truly bring anything to life. I don't know if this is because it was a conversation I was just having earlier today, but I I think that I think a lot about like who benefits from us believing that we are forced or we we have no agency to do something else. And eventually somebody benefits from Well, yeah, of course. And so you know who benefits. Yeah, exactly. Like but like we don't benefit is what I think that at all. And that's like the thing where it's like I not to say that it's like all self-servicing or like I only want to do things that benefited me. Like we talked about collaboration, right? But I I think that like if I'm making a decision not to, it w why am I giving that you know, nameless, faceless thing that benefits from me choosing not to, all of the benefit when I like I could just choose to give it to myself. Hundred percent. There's is kind of a a thing that that's like a a a nuanced theme that I've that I've come back to often. Yeah. Nuance. There it is again. no, I mean I think that's been such a massive driver behind my thirst for entrepreneurship. 'cause like the podcast is not the first thing that I've dipped my toes in. When I graduated college, started a company, it went but, you know, whatever, did it. And Then I did the corporate thing and then I've been freelancing for the last four, three, three and a half, four years. running my own LLC. You know, it's like it's taught me a lot of stuff. But I think a big driver behind it was I felt very constrained and tethered to a business and this allowed me a little bit of space between the business and the ability to work with multiple clients and I love that. And I get to pick and choose like I get to decide what are the skills that I want to to leverage and monetize and then what are the skills that I don't have and what are the things I'm bad at that I'm gonna outsource and but through that freelancing experience I felt this this sensation of I am generating so much value for someone else through my hard work and labor. I wanna I want to be responsible for my own creation and I want the value that I, you know, am able to capture a to be a direct derivative of the value that I'm creating rather than some like fraction of the value I'm creating through the software. Yeah, it's it's it's interesting. do you ever listen to the Founders podcast? Do you know that one? I do. I I it's not one that I subscribe to and actively listen to, but I've had a couple of episodes sent over to me. Yeah. I didn't and then last year I got completely hooked and I just like have binged listened to it for a long time. but I bring it up because it he is his like philosophy on entrepreneurship is like when you believe that the value that you're able to deliver is not adequately reciprocated in the compensation that you get. and when that when that like equation doesn't work, your choice is to either accept that or go off on your own. and I think that that's, you know, the Not to say that I think I've been my my my value has been adequately satisfied by by the business that I've created, but I think like I for me it was more like I didn't to go back to the sitting across from like I didn't love that I I had a defined job description. Yeah. That I couldn't do things outside of that. Like it would be I would be reprimanded if I chose to sit you know, go talk to the engineering team. Like n this is I don't want to make it seem like I actually did get repr but like that was kind of like the The constraints were there. Yeah. and I didn't want them. Yeah. Don't you know? I I I think that's maybe like my if I could summarize my my reason for pursuing entrepreneurship is to remove constraints from my life in every way possible. Understood.

There's a concept that's come up a lot in my life lately that I'm really wrestling with, which is the notion of the personal brand. Mm-hmm. And there's a couple of of podcasters who I really respect who have strong opinions on this matter. there's also just it seems like the market is kind of indicating there's a lot more I mean, you look at you know, Diary of a CEO or Modern Wisdom and their hosts have millions of followers on Instagram and their podcasts have like thousands or tens of thousands. Yeah. Orders of magnitude difference in in follower count. And obviously follower count is just more or less a vanity metric, but It is obviously directionally truthful that there are more people who are consuming the content of the individuals versus the brand itself. Obviously, Hazlo is a brand, right? You're at the forefront of that brand, but there has to be some level of personal brand associated with the two. So, how do you think about creating your personal brand in conjunction with the consumer package good brand that you're creating? And then when you think about sort of forecasting into the future of what you're creating, where is that? balance. You know, is it does it air a little bit more personally at to attach to you and your likeness, or does it air a little bit closer to something that's more productized? Mm. I and and this is something that I don't necessarily see myself as an authority on, but I think I think the best brands start like the best product brands start as having a person attached to it and then outgrow it. And if you think about all the biggest products like Red Bull, nobody really knows the founders of Red Bull, right? It's its own thing. like Poppi just was a huge success story, right? And yes, the founders are known, but like they were never they weren't the face by eventually. So if you wanna build a product that actually does have a significant impact and, you know, value in the world, eventually it will probably need to go beyond you. And I think that's I you know, I used the the analogy earlier of like my like children, right? And like I kind of see myself as this person that wants to I want to give birth to these things. and I think I have a skill at p making in reality an idea that is purely theory and you know, again, getting it to a point where it's tastes good and it we can make a lot of it. and that is something where I'm realizing that I think I might have a skill of that that it goes beyond the average person where I don't think I necessarily have the skill of taking that product and, you know, scaling it from where where we are today to where Poppi eventually got to. and so I think my the the personal brand side of it, I really want to be, you know, this is like again, this this idea of Hazlo do it. Like I want to be the guy that talks to somebody who has this idea for a product and I'm like, that's freaking genius. Let's go make it. And then I get to be the guy that like helps them do that. Zero to one, not the one to a hundred. And and you know, it's funny you we we started talking about CJ. and that was he was the first person that really told me that like That was okay. You know, like the he's like, I'm I only want to be in the dirt at the beginning. Like as soon as we get to the point of like a we're we're building on a foundation, I'm out. Like that doesn't interest me at all. I want to get back in the dirt. I resonate with that strong strongly for software stuff. Yeah. You know, it's like as soon as you get to like I'm struggling right now with one of my clients because they're they're just getting to a point where there's like bureaucracy now. And when I first work with them, it was like the the The CEO is like the a founder or rather the investor in another company I worked with. And he's just like, Okay, let's talk to you. And then now he's like, Okay, well now you should talk to the director of engineering. Like, ugh. That sounds bureaucratic. Yeah. That's not really up my alley. Well, and that's in like then that's the agency of like you get to choose not to hundred percent. You should be like, hey. Yeah. I think you I think there's somebody else who's probably better at this than me. Yeah. and that's that I think the There's quite a few people who are better than that. And the latest like version of my like self-acceptance has been like, yeah, there's there's like so many people that are better than me at taking this product that I, you know, created and getting it to the point where selling more. Like, just let them do it. Like why like I'm f I feel like the last you know two years in particular, I've been really there's been the like kernels of monotony because I'm like, I need to just go sell this more into more places and do it in in Part of that is real. Part of that is like you need to be growing the business. but also part of it is like, I don't need to be the person that's doing that specific thing. Yeah. Like I like there are people that are better at it. so that's kind of like I've been I've been I've been acknowledging that in myself and allowing for me to not see it as to go back to what we talked about earlier of like quitting. It's like that's not me acknowledging that and allowing somebody else to do that does not make me. less than or you know, a failure at certain things. It is purely me getting closer of just like honing in on like what is it that I like to do and what do I what am I good at? and so that's kind of the that's what this next chapter is gonna be. I love that. Yeah.

On that note, is there anything in particular that you need help with or anyone who might be listening to this who could add some value in your business and your personal life? Hmm. I think if I'm honest with you, I think I'd prefer that. I think I am at a stage where I would rather be a value to someone else. Okay. And I think I've and I say that by being like the things everything in my life that is good has only come from somebody else helping me get there. Heard. and but it oftentimes is not when I'm looking for it. So like there's not I don't I don't actually have like a this is what I'm looking for. That's okay. And it's like I would like to I would like to pay it forward to be of help to somebody else in some capacity. Love that. Well, I'm gonna frame it a little bit differently then, which is given that you now have an opportunity to speak to some number of people. Relatively small growing number of people. Growing, that's a good word. Yeah. in fact, by the time this does go live, there will be Likely way more people listening from a percentage basis than there are currently because it's been slowly growing and that's good. That's amazing. with that said, is there anything on your mind in your heart that you want to have this platform to share? Doesn't have to be business related, it can be anything. Yeah. Well, I think the I think some of the best things for me personally have come from, you know. Reading or engaging in stuff that seems a little bit on the woo-woo side, I guess I would say. and we talked about books and you mentioned the creative act. my favorite book of all time is The War of Art. Yes. Have you read that one too? No, but I heard it on the podcast. Yeah, yeah. I cannot express the level of just like feeling seen by an author than reading that book. And I think I I put this as a thing to to encourage people to do because it's one hundred and twenty pages. And you can it like the the reading time is likely less than two hours total. for me as a slow reader. Like that's you know. and I think the the what's beautiful about that is especially if you're someone who isn't actively an artist or an entrepreneur right now, it frames life in the pursuit of anything in the in the lens of a story and allows you to like see yourself in almost the third person of like I am the hero of my own story. And in the different phases of story, good things happen, bad things happen. And like if I think for me currently in the you know like the coming out of like a it was a harder period earlier this year where things just didn't seem like they were working out. And this book and in the different ways that I interact with Steven Pressfield, the author, he's just like, Yeah, dude, when when you're writing a story, the only thing you do is in act two, you make the s hero suffer more. And if you can't think of what to write, you just make him suffer more. And seeing like reading that and like being in a moment of like it not. feeling like things were working out. I'm like, this is just this part of the story where they're making me suffer more. Like if and eventually you get to the third act and things just fucking work out. And I think that's the thing for, you know, if I if I can summarize this like this kind of journey I've been on of this is like the times where things seemed the hardest and like they weren't working out, 100% of the time preceded everything working out. And never really working out exactly the way I thought they were going to, but everything working out. And I think that's the the the the message to to everyone is like, you know, there are there will be times where things seem really hard and they almost always give way to to things being in a better spot. Love it.

Can you share some of those sufferings and then their corresponding victories? Yeah. I mean something as simple as like, You know, with with the the business, right? It's like so we're you know, we're we're growing and we're figuring it out and and I think the thing that is so different about the product space than the software space is economies of scale is just like it's pretty tough. You know, like you're you s you make a bunch of something, you sell it, and you have to spend almost all of that money you made to make the thing again. Whereas in software, right, you make it once and you just sell it forever. And it's just like you're able to really like, you know, take advantage of the the earlier work. There's no ARR with this. Exactly, right? Yeah. And so it's I think we were in a stage where it's like the no more money, right? Like you'd like I'm I'm spending all of it, we're selling the product, we're getting the money back, and it's just like we there there's it's a very challenging thing. And so, you know, it came to a point where like I don't you know, if I don't get more money, I don't know what's gonna happen. and you know, like having that internal reckoning of like accepting that that might be failure, whatever whatever that is, like realizing that you might be letting people down. And every time, money appeared. Mm. And what what sort of financing financing instruments did you did you leverage? Mostly debt? I you know, it's just like a a beautiful A beautiful collection of everything. Okay. but yeah, like I mean some some debt, but then some investors and some like my own money type of thing. And and so it's been a a lot a lot of that and I think this is the the piece What I realize my job is, is just to like figure out what puzzle piece goes next. Yeah. Like how do how do you how do I make like here's the situation. I need to be able to sort my way through it. That's but my job is to figure it out. And while maybe it doesn't look exactly how the way I I wanted it to, or when I a year ago when I like forecasting what the future looked like, it's different in reality. but I think this is like the like I I continue to figure it out. And this that's that is the piece that I feel very proud of and it only happens because in those moments where it's very unclear or I don't know exactly where we're going and my the part of me that wants to just like be right is like fuck it, we don't need to do this anymore. And choosing to like just not give in to that in those moments is what precedes all the good. Love it. Since we're on the suffering yeah

What's the what would you describe or what would you say is the most the worst adversity you've faced in your life? Worst adversity that I've faced. I I've been very blessed and like to have very few, you know, I would say like traditional versions of life suffering, whether that's illness or you know, like I think the I've I've had some like friends that were close to me pass away, but like even you know, even that I I feel like they're yeah, I I struggle w to put myself as someone who has like suffered in that way. and honestly I think the suffering that I felt has been in mostly self inflicted and comes from I was actually talking to a friend about this, where like I think I have I I'm wired in such a way where I have more energy than the average person. For whatever reason, right? Like that was like I came out of the womb and I have an excess of energy. And when I have something to point it towards, creating a business, you know, with like trading for a race, whatever, that energy gets used in a really positive way. When I don't have something that is being directed towards, that energy almost entirely gets directed back at myself. And I, you know, in t forms of depression or, you know, like anxiety to the point of not being able to sleep. Like I just I've got this this energy that I need to be pointed in a direction. and at times I allow it to point back at myself. And yeah, so that's I'd say the suffering has almost always happened when that is the case. Thank you for sharing. Yeah.

Who has been the most influential person in your life? I would say, I mean, my parents absolutely. I think to go like a layer deeper, like my my grandfather, my my dad's dad, it's actually someone I've thought about him a recently. He passed away a couple of years ago, but I I think through my relationship with him, I kind of saw someone who I who I think I equate to like winning life. Mm-hmm and he was not the wealthiest person. He was not you know, the most yeah, like he like there was no he he he opted out of being evaluated on the standard scale that we as a society seem to measure people and instead retired before retirement age, had, you know, every single summer had me and my twenty one first cousins come to this place in Ohio and just like hang out on this boat and like go you know, like just And do that and he and he he chose he lived life in a way that he wanted to every day. And that is something that I think I without really knowing it have like aspired to get to. Yeah.

Just to kind of pull on that thread a little bit more, sixty-six years from now, you're on your deathbed. Yeah. how and you look back at your life and you feel this sense of bliss. and serenity because you have you two have won. What what makes your life a winning life? I believe it would be two parts. So the first part would be And we talked about like the sports thing where like I feel like I didn't give a hundred percent ever. Yep. Like I give a hundred percent. Like that's like knowing that at some point I at least because I don't think I'll I'll ever reach my quote unquote potential, right? But like I I know that I showed up every day. And it doesn't have to be every day. Like the or to the to the there's no like level it needs to reach. But I know that if I showed up every day. And so like that's I will I will look back and be like, damn, that guy fucking he he he put in he put in effort, right? so that would be number one. That's kind of like the baseline. And the second one would be I collected more people to be on that process with me. Whether that's ins like helping be an inspiration for them to do that or bringing friends in, bringing fam like having a growing circle of humans that I get to do that with and show up with every day. Yeah. And I I feel like you're very much on the trajectory for that because at the beginning of the episode you mentioned being a solopreneur. And then sort of through the course of this hour and some change, you've talked about how you're recognizing, okay, I it's time for me to bring more people in. So that's a theme in your work, but it sounds like it's also a theme in your personal life. Totally. And I think, you know, just even double clicking on that, like part of the reflection on this whole process has been there's the EUI coming in. Let's double click on that. I still have corporate in my bones somewhere. I I needed to do it on my own. Both to w like prove to myself that I could, ish, right? but also to have a full understanding of here are the things that are on the like here is the menu that needs to be filled. Here's what I want to do. And I would never know that. rather, here's the stuff I don't want to do. And I would never know that had I not done all of it. Yeah. And now I get to step into a thing where it's like, I could do it myself. I don't think it's gonna get to where we want it to be. Yeah. So here you go. Here's here's the enrollment of other people to do all the rest of it. Yeah, I feel like that's also that holds so true for relationships too. Like especially romantic ones is like when you are single and understand yourself. Then you only then can you fully understand like, okay, what is it that I'm looking for from a partner? How are they going to create more value in my life? Totally. sort of the what one plus one equals three mentality. And then this is like, I know I bring this to the table. I know that this is where I feel complete and I don't need someone to compensate with me there. 100%. Yeah. I love that.

Well, Sam, this has been an absolute pleasure. Likewise. Yeah. I you're a phenomenal conversationalist, so much wisdom to share at such a young, ripe age. genuinely appreciate you taking the time of your day to chat with me. before we close out, where I already asked you if there's anything people can help you with. it seems like you're not so interested, which is great. That's totally fine. with that said, where can people purchase Hazlo? Where can they find you? Where can they connect? Hmm. And maybe the yeah, it's a good I don't want to say I'm rejecting help. I can always I need a lot of help if we're being honest here. But I just think there's not anything top of mind. and again, you're c talking to me at a point where like, Things are things worked out real well. Heard in terms of a couple key things. So I'm like, I feel like I've gotten a lot of help. I don't need it. I feel so rejected right now, Sam. but yeah, so I mean my my personal Instagram is like @sam.e.more. Hazlo's Instagram is @drinkhazlo. there's a forthcoming, you know, other businesses that will be out there too. and LinkedIn, you know, we're doing at the corporate thing. Sam Moore, if you search Hazlo, I'm the only employee. So, you know, you'll be able to to find me really easily. so you are the only employee. You have contractors? Yeah. Okay. and then for like canning and the sort of manufacturing side, are you working with a like a I I know there's like what do they call them? Like community kitchens. Are there kind of like like canning operations where you can like rent space or rent ops from? They're they're like They're called co manufacturers and they just have all the equipment and their business is selling ti line time to people like myself. Okay. So yeah, we have we have it's I'm I'm the only person full time okay employee. What about the individuals who helped with the formulation and the the bartender who she helped you kind of create the original formula? That's not That did not turn into or perhaps it was never interested in being full time. It was just, hey, I need some help here. Yeah, it was more like Eden the best. Okay. More so she met me at a a similar time where it seemed like nothing was working out and couldn't figure out how to make it happen. And turns out that she's like one of the most talented mixologists in the fucking country that decided to like make it for me. So it was always a a like contracted thing that I hi I I hired her to to help me make it. Cool. so yeah. But I'm up you know, if people want to people want to join the team. I'm it's I I'd I would love to. This is we're an expansive moment right now. Yeah. Bringing other people in. Beautiful. Love that. Thank you so very much, Sam. Yeah, thank you for having me. My pleasure.