He Hiked 8,000 Miles — Then Made MasterChef Top 23

I fucking love the Hawaiian on you, dude. Thank you. I just you know what I should do is I should just open up my closet to any guests and be like, yo, if just fucking I don't have that much cool shit. But if I did have cool shit. You have a lot of cool shit. I think you have a lot of cool shit. What are we talking about? Yeah. Closet's great. I've recently been getting into style or or I let me put it differently. I've recently been recognizing the value in just expression in general. And I think part of that expression is like when you go out, when you go to a show, when you go to dinner, when you do anything, being able to express yourself through clothes. I'm on the same journey, man. Yeah. Yes. I go into the burns as awakened that in me. A hundred percent. Yes. Festivals. I have never done a burn. We'll get into that too. Festivals, bushdufs. I don't know what that word means. Yeah, that's like an Australian thing. It's it's it's not Really a burn, although there's lots of burning, but it's kind of a separate category where it's like an underground festival in the middle of the bush. So bushland, middle of fucking nowhere. Yeah, yeah, that's cool.

I think you wanted to start with 2020. Yes. Right? That feels like a good place. It was a great inflection point in my life. Do you feel like there's Any context prior to 2020 that you wanna start off the bat with or should we add color as we go through? I think pre 2020's is valuable to talk about. It's part of the hero's journey we're talking about. Right. And me realizing the cycles in my life that aren't serving me and letting parts die and other parts grow. And pre 2020's is absolutely part of that. I went to college, University of Washington. That's where I'm from. I'm from the Pacific Northwest. I went to school for civil engineering.

It's my my dad, he was an independent general contractor, and two thousand eight happened to us and it hit it hit us real big. It rocked us, man. It's our sole income. he had to take on some debt and he lost like all of his retirement and it was really hard on him and from that pain, he said, Son, I don't want that for you. Also don't want you to break your back like I did, son. So why don't you just go to college, man? And it was kind of serendipitous, no, it was incredibly serendipitous because while having no income. the way the federal application for student aid works. If your parent doesn't have income, you basically get more aid. That's how it works. And so I was able to get a lot of grant money and able to pay my way through college with the help of the the federal government and have little debt. I graduated with fifty five hundred. I received more help than just federal. It was also my hard work putting in essays for scholarships. I did a lot of work with that. I spent many hours in the in the English Tutor Center having them review my stuff. So Anyway, not to get on a on a tangent, but yeah. went to school for civil engineering and had an incredibly hard work ethic there. My dad instilled that in me. You know, he he's a hard worker himself. The only time I ever saw him cry was when my grandmother passed away. I've never seen him cry another time in my life. Incredible. Don't know that that's healthy and I certainly cry more than that. I was gonna ask, is that a good thing? I don't think so. I don't think so.

So I yeah, didn't like the inspection job. I ended up leaving after well, I actually got laid off. After a little over two years, I felt really bad when when the news came because it made me feel useless and like, what use am I to society if I can't even hold a job? So After the fact, man, it's actually such a blessing that that happened because I got to get paid to have a period in my life of self discovery of about five months. What year was this? This was 2016 2018 this was 2018 And one of my good friends, good friends, Nick, he's now a dad. He had a period of unemployment in the same time. Mm-hmm. So we ended up reconnecting in a moment of serendipity. We ended up going on a lot of hikes and talking about life and what we want to see for our future selves. That's almost ten years ago almost ten years, exactly ten years ago now, almost. So I'm so grateful to have him in my life. it was a wonderful time we spent.

We shared a lot of precious moments together. At this time were you aware that there was the emotional side of you that had can been kind of chipped away, or were you still just sort of content in doing the thing? Yeah, so that's a good thing to get into is doing the thing. Yeah. so no to answer your question, the answer is no. I was on the railroad tracks that I was put on and I never questioned them. Yep. You know, go to school, go get a job, go retire, live for a couple of years and die. Yep.

And I was on that track. I was on that track. wasn't aware of it. I've just recently become aware of it. So I was just like, my god, get a job, bro. Get a job right now. Get paid. Put in the 401K Yeah. Without getting too far ahead of ourselves, why it feels like now there's more people who are aware of this shift. we met through a cookbook club.

And I just f we after what, three times of hanging out, work kinda came up and you were you mentioned you had been a civil engineer and you were shifting to something else and you weren't exactly sure and we'll delve into the details shortly. But at that time you were I I feel like in that week alone, the third person I had talked to within the little Denver community who had shifted away from a more traditional job or is in the process of moving. What is it? Why Why does it seem like there's something happening now? What is it for you now that has churned something?

Yes, I can certainly relate to the shift in consciousness that the world is experiencing. For me it all comes down to purpose. Why am I here on this earth? What am I doing on this earth? What am I gonna be looking back on my deathbed and being proud of? If I don't have the answer to that question, it's gonna be a hard time passing on to the next life. It's gonna be really hard or nothing or black, whatever it is, dude.

So I wanna live my life in accordance with some solid foundational values, and that is loving people and spending my time making people feel heard, seen and loved, because we're all children who want to be heard, seen and loved at the end of the day. Deep under. And we all have some form of attachment wounds, 'cause no one's perfect. definitely not an exclusion to that, not an exception to that. So I'd like to spend my time making feet people feel loved. Yeah. Every way I can. Just like we're doing right here right now. Reaching out people. Absolutely. Being relatable. So after the question? Sorry, can you repeat the question? Well, we'll get back to the story. So 2018 or 2016? Sorry. No, 2018 Yes. Hiatus. spent some time with your friend Nick. Yes. What was next? So after that, I did the thing, found a job, got back on that railroad track. We're back, we're chugging.

So this job, as opposed to construction inspection, is now more analytical. So I recognized that myself, like I was talking about before I took all these math courses for six years. Mm-hmm. Why don't I use that? So I found a job in structural civil engineering, which is bridge load rating. My job was to read plans and understand them and load rate them, it's called. Mm-hmm. Check the strength of the bridge. That's all it is. The background to why that job exists is in Mississippi there was a bridge that collapsed and killed people. Awful.

So the federal government said check every goddamn bridge. Never again. Never again. And so that was my job. but after a while doing that, which is about two and a quarter years, it became repetitive. You know, there's only so many types type different types of bridges. Right? And so I ended up doing the same thing every day, day in, day out, getting depressed, feeling numb. And so after that time period was up, I got fed up enough.

I decided to quit and embark on a very soulful journey that is the Pacific Crest Trail. That is through hiking. We can get into that now. Yes. So I'll give a little context as to what through hiking is because it's a massive, truly massive undertaking. And anyone who finishes one of those is a special human in so many ways. So a through hike on its base definition is a hike from point A to point B. It doesn't need to be across the country like I did. It can be from Car to car. That's all that's required. And but back to what I was doing. The Pacific Crest Trail is 2,653 miles long and it stretches from Mexico to Canada border to border. it's been around since I believe the seventies, sixties or seventies. There's an association that maintains and keeps care of this trail, and I respect them for that. But I heard about this trail in my teenager years from a friend who got me into hiking.

When I first started hiking when I was sixteen. And he's he kinda planted the seed unknowingly. but I knew I needed space to think and I needed to be free and wild and express that side of myself that I'd never allowed to be expressed before. It's like I was saying, I was been on the r I'd been on the railroad tracks for so long. And I'm like, There's no way this is gonna last until I'm whatever age where I can retire. There's just no way, dude. So I gave my two weeks and unbeknownst to me, the world changed and COVID happened. And that was after I quit. So I actually tried to run back and say, my God, can you have my job back, dude? You know, they said no, dude. They said no. They said no. and in the moment I was panicking and stressed for a whole wide number of reasons. But I tr I decided to trust the process and prioritize my mental health. and embark on this journey. So I bought a ticket down to San Diego, hopped on the old bus, down to Campo, which is the border town that this trail starts in, and watched a meteor shower on night one. Wow. Just laid down on the ground. Cowboy camping they it. No tent no nothing. This is the desert, it doesn't rain that often. You can know when it's gonna happen. I just watched the meteor showers and fell asleep with a million pounds of anxiety in my chest and what this means for me and my life.

So that's how that started. What about nature is it that drew you and what is it today that continues to draw?

Nature is a place of healing. It's a place of solace where one can ponder their life and the direction in which they're headed. it's a great place for reflection. It's the natural state of where we're meant to be. And there's no bigger, grander place for that than a through hike. in my mind. So that's why I chose it. It was a long time period in the way my finances were, I could afford to do such a journey and learn about myself because to accomplish the goals in my life that I want to accomplish, I need to look inward as deep as possible and not repeat the generational cycles of hate and hatred and anger that have done damage to me.

And so I chose the PCT I'm gonna start calling it that. Yeah. I chose the PCT as a container of reflection.

So how long was the journey? It lasted a hundred and seventy-four days, that's five and a half months. I started on Earth Day, just serendipitously. April twenty second and I wrapped it up on October seventh. Wow. I walked, walked, walked, and walked some more. Averaging how many miles a day? eighteen to twenty-seven. Eighteen to twenty-seven. That's crazy. Yeah. I met some of the most colorful soulful bright people in the world on that journey and I'm in contact with them to this day. Yeah. Cause then that year in particular, only the dedicated remained. Yeah. Only the dedicated. Only the people who really needed that shit. Mm. You know, you feel me? Yeah. There are people who flew out of the country, came in. People every year do that. And in this year in particular they were trapped 'cause they couldn't go back. They were stuck with a visa timeline. And they had to make it happen.

I respected them in particular. I had a lot of respect for them. I respect everyone out there, but those people in particular. You said something that you lived each and every day in the present and you didn't realize what role that played in your happiness until now. Can you talk a little bit about that? I can. Yes. I had a very grounded sense of self while on trail and off of it.

But But a few weeks after getting off a trail, you go back into what we call the default world. That's what we call it at the burn. You're gonna go on back to the default world. Shit. Gotta go integrate my downloads. We'll get into that lingo later. But Being in the present moment and not desiring in the in the slightest to disassociate whatsoever from what your life is creates happiness. because you are happy to be in the moment. You're happy to be doing what you're doing. And you on a through hike you're doing what humans are meant to do. They're meant to move.

They're meant to be together and they're meant to commune. And the trail sets all that up in spades every day, every moment. Now I know I'm painting a very rosy picture of it, and it's not that way. There are days where I wanted to quit. 100%. You know. Why didn't you? I wasn't done reflecting. I wasn't done reflecting, and I'm very hard headed. I'm very stubborn. How do you know when you're done?

When you don't have a reason to go on, when you don't have a reason to step one foot in front of another. And I've seen plenty of people go that way, and I have all nothing but respect for them too, because slight side side note, have you ever heard of the author Paulo Coelho? Mm-hmm the Alchemist. He wrote The Alchemist. Okay. He has what he calls the path to your personal legend. And everyone is on the path to their personal legend. Sometimes we get stuck, sometimes we're moving fast, but we're all on the path.

And sometimes what you need isn't the trail and it's somewhere else. But for me it remained being the trail and reflecting with myself and my trail family, which is tramley, I'm gonna shorten it to. Which sounds like a drug. It's a good one. It's the best one around. It's some good shit. So yes, I was getting growth out of it and we're all humans on earth trying to grow, so as long as what you're doing and the people you're surrounding yourself with are growing you, you're gonna keep doing it. It's innate to all of us and we all understand it at some deep level. And the trail was growing me. It was growing me on the PCT the whole way. And as we talk about my other through hikes, my other subsequent through hikes, that feeling faded. And that's another thing we can get into as we get in deeper into the topic. But yeah, that's why I didn't quit to answer your question. Mm-hmm So what was next after the hike? After the hike we always gotta decompress, so we got a little Airbnb after whole sh the whole shebang was done. We actually had to walk thirty-five miles back from the border because we couldn't go into Canada 'cause of the situation of the world. So went back thirty-five miles, hitched a ride back to Seattle, got an Airbnb with friends and just kinda Shared an intimate space and partied a little bit too. Don't get me wrong. But we all parted ways and said, Hey, time to go back to the default world. I wish you much love, brother, sister. My phone is open, call any time. Okay. Before we get into the default world, yeah. gratitude came up a lot. For context, I was scouring some journals that Jake lent me and I noticed the word gratitude came up quite a bit.

And you also said there was something about your dad had this mentality of you should be grateful for the privileges that you have, the work that you have, the job you have, the income, all that. And you mentioned sort of this dichotomy between the gratitude for what you have and the wanting more, wanting change. Yes. Yeah.

I now realize that I can be grateful for those things and also desire change. Yeah. Those two things are not exclusive. Because being stuck in a cycle of hating what you do every day for eight hours is not sustainable whatsoever. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And I tend to shut down. I've learned about myself. I tend to shut down and get real quiet and that's no way to be. We should be burning bright. So I'm on the path again. Ugh feels good. That's why. What was the question? Well I I I was just curious to why was it that gratitude came up? Do you feel like that was something that was really brought out through the hike, through nature, through community, all the above? And do you think you're able to still can carry that with you or does it start to fade past hiking? Mm-hmm.

I have a cycle in my life where it fades and there's a repeated cycle of I do this amazing experience and then it fades and do this amazing experience and then it fades away again and I get on a into a depression. So now I don't want to get into the career the topic of career change quite yet. Mm mm but I'm trying to find a more sustained version of that. Mm-hmm and that ties into purpose. Yeah. What am I doing with my job? 'Cause I need to work, I need to make money. it needs to be something that I truly find meaning in and I find is a measurable contribution to the world, preferably immediate. Yeah. That's why, yeah. You've touched on two topics that have come up a lot recently. First one, the all or nothing or the the or versus the and another way of framing it. I struggle with that a lot where I think, you know, I wanna do this, but I also want to do that. Why not do both? You know, it's not a question of are you grateful for the job that you have that pays the bills, or do you wanna go fuck off and move across the world? You can have both. Now maybe not exactly simultaneously, but you can you can indeed. And I think reframing things from or to and really helps.

You can be grateful for your job. You can be grateful for the work that you have and you can want more and you can want change. The second concept I like that you brought up is the ebbing and flowing, the cycle, the cyclical nature of life. Seasons. Seasons, yeah. Cause I you talk about the railroad, right? You hear That metaphor, the the climbing the ladder, right? And all of these things, I get that railroads can, you know, they have twists and turns, right? But when I think of one, I I really just think of a straight. It's a straight and narrow. Yeah, that's the concept I'm getting at for sure. Right. Same with the ladder when you're climbing, it's just up, right? Right. And then you have, you know, the idea of growth, which is a chart that goes up and to the right. You know, is it? Stock market. Stocks go up. Yeah, exactly.

So it it seems like there's a lot of framing of life in an extremely linear, predictable fashion. But that's not the reality, is it? Yes. So I would say there's a good analogy in nature for this, which is when a forest gets too thick, it must burn. Part of it must burn to make room for new growth. Mm. And I'm doing that to myself right now. There are parts of me I'm allowing to die in order to make room for what's new.

And it's been instrumental to my success and my mental health lately. And also while also f planning financially for it. Mm-hmm. These two things both have to be true at the same time. You cannot just do it willy nilly. There's no way in hell.

And being in a place where I can do that and having had the job that earned that much money, so that I can do this now is something I'm incredibly grateful for. Yeah. So grateful for. Yeah. And I'm glad. So So PCT. Yes. Five and half months, concluded that, did a little bit of partying, decompressing with friends. Yes. Then it was back to the default world. It was back to the default world. And I knew that I wanted to hike the Appalachian Trail next. That was 2021. Okay.

Some people hike more than one trail in a year. I'm not that kind of person. I like to stop and smell the roses and enjoy the people around me and the sights and the scenes and the smells. So my dad being the gracious, patient person he is, he allowed me to stay with him rent-free over the winter season, where I took up extreme weightlifting. I really got into it. I got into nutrition deep. I started intaking all sorts of inter information and scientific studies.

And learning the ins and outs of your muscles and how your body works because it's directly tied to my success on the trail directly. And it's the foundation that my life is. Everything, my mood and everything is based off of that, my nutrition and my fitness. So I delved as deep as possible because I had this free time. And became very muscular and continue to maintain that to this day. And I have a lot of nutritional background knowledge too, supplemental information. I love Love, love, love giving that information out to people who are willing to accept and hear it. I've helped many people. I even wrote a book about it, about how through hikers ought to consider this because so many of them just eat like ramen and no protein. Mm. That is not the way. But we'll get to that topic as well. There's so many things to talk about. Yeah. Yeah. I spent that winter working out. thinking about what's next, researching the Appalachian Trail. I wanted a hammock camp too, because there's so many trees on the East Coast.

So I set that up too. And y you hammock camp every night. I hammock camp every night in my house. That is crazy to me. I got a bed too, just to be clear. But I I drilled it. I drilled some climbing anchors into the studs and my walls. I have been to your house. I have seen your hammock in your bed. And I said, Do you ever sleep in your bed? And you said, No. No. Yeah, it's there for other reasons. But I got the hammock in the walls. I prefer to sleep that way.

It's so good for my back. And a lot of maybe some of your listeners be I've always had trouble sleeping in a hammock, but if you sleep on the diagonal, it's actually really nice. My back can like decompress. It doesn't turn into a banana, you're rather flat. And it's the diagonal? Yeah, you sleep if you ha hang the hammock with the right angle of sag and sleep on the diagonal, like not straight on, mm-hmm, then your back becomes a banana. If you sleep on the diagonal, you become flat. Mostly flat. And it works out nicely. No pillow, no nothing. Out.

Wow.

It's wonderful. I can definitely fall asleep on hammocks, but I I could not have a pro I don't believe I could have a proper sleep. But maybe I don't have the right sag. That's the key. Always gotta have the right sag, brother. Always the right sag. Also it pays to have an underquilt. A lot of people don't do the underquilt 'cause it's a little more expensive. So you gotta have an insulation underneath because any wind drift underneath will take your heat away real quick. 'Cause everything Underneath you, any insulation you have is squished and downworks by trapping hot air and it's not gonna trap hot air if it's squished. So you gotta have a quilt underneath. And and by underneath you mean on the outside. Yeah. I see. Yeah. Okay. Okay. It's the best way to go. You have a little bit you you become a little taco. A little taco, taco, taco. That's a cozy that's a very cozy way to think about sleeping. Yeah. Swaddling clobs. Yeah. It's so nice. Yeah. All right. I've got some ideas around this place. I could hang a hammock.

I'll certainly assist. I've got a stud finder bro. Yeah, cool. I've got we got tools. Always getting more tools. okay. So App Trail 2021. Tell me about that.

Okay, so I've done my research on the trail. I know what to expect, and looking back I kinda wish I didn't do that because I want my experience to be n as novel as possible, 'cause that's part of life. You know, having novelty, a certain amount of novelty, and not being on the straight railroad tracks too much. but also having some Some what's the word I'm looking for? Stability. Having some stability, the right amount. But not too much. You know, it's different for everyone. But I so I researched the Appalachian Trail. There's enough trees. Let's get a hammock set up going. We've got that. We fly out to the east coast. I get a little ride situated to go to Amakalola Falls, it's called. That's the southern terminus. You can climb Springer Mountain if you want. Some people just drive to the top, but I just say, drop me off at the falls. I wanna hike up this mountain. I'm gonna hike A thousand of them, I might as well do this one. So Do you fly into Atlanta in the directions? Yes. Yes. Yes. I flew up to Atlanta. It's like eighty miles north, Amacalola. Yep. been there many a time. It's beautiful. You're from Atlanta. Mm-hmm. That's right. Yeah. Yeah, you and Kelsey. Mm-hmm. So you started on April eighteenth, damn near the same day I started the the Paci the the Pacific Crest Trail. And I took a longer time on this one.

I finished on October twelfth with my trail family, which is also about five and a half. Yeah, it's not that much different. Okay. It's like you did nine months? Okay. It's way less miles though. Like earlier I mentioned the PCT is 2,653 miles. What's the app trail? 2,200 Which is also like to your listeners, what the fu what's the difference? That's thousands of miles, bro. It's a significant amount 'cause when you're fighting winter and you're racing winter, four hundred and fifty is a lot. Yeah, fair enough. But the A T Like think of it this way, listeners, the the the ruggedness of this trail is such that it's just as much mile diff mile difficulties or more as the PCT. Because the PCT was built so that a horse could traverse it. That was their thinking as they manu as they constructed the trail. Like less elevation gain more gentle rolling in PCT compared to ACT. Yes. Yeah, okay. Yes, more gentle rolling hills on the PCT. A T, not A C T.

And the AT like older. It's the oldest trail. Yes. It's been around since like I think the eighteen fifties. Some of the oldest mountains in the world. Yes, they are literally. Literally the oldest mountains in the world. Very soulful. Yes. And those trails don't know what switchbacks are. They don't know what a damn switchback is. And I resented that a lot. Well that that accounts for the four hundred or so miles of difference. It's just 'cause they're up straight up, straight down. Knees be damned. Yeah. Knees be goddamned. but I on the P C T I resented the rolling hills part. The grass is always greener. That's the analogy here. Of course. The P C T. 'cause it's like get to the damn point, dude. The AT like, I'm gonna get to the damn point, it's gonna hurt. Yeah. Let's go. so I did go and I I met wonderful people who got me into the burner scene, which we'll talk about later on the Appalachian Trail. There's a big burner presence on the east coast. Mm. And I'm still in contact with them to this day. I actually just got back from Welcome Home. It's a regional burn in Asheville, North Carolina. I took my old 4Runner out there, old Rocky. We'll talk about her later. She's a beaut. She's a trip, dude. She's wonderful. I love her. I love her very much. I'm interested to just kind of compare the two, the Pacific and Atlantic coasts. I find the sort of spirituality, the mysticism of the ancient Appalachian Mountains to be quite a contrast to the Rockies, which are, you know, young and massive and much more prominence and just boldness. How did that affect your experiences in each of those places?

That is a great question. Thank you for asking it. I only know the mountains. Let me back up the truck. When I started the Appalachian Trail, never been to the East Coast before. Throwing myself in the deep end here. Never seen the soulful Appalachian Mountains. I grew up in the Cascades, right? That's Washington State. That's where grew up. So I only know those big grand mountains like Rainier, which I summited with my friend, with my good friend. Nick? Eric. Okay. Another good friend of mine. Those are two my two best friends.

Two of my best friends right there. Cool. I can count on them. Yeah. But yeah, to compare the two mountains, I'd say they call the Appalachian Trail the Green Tunnel for a reason. You're always under this thick canopy of forest and it feels very protected and like a form of solace all the time and you're just in nature and really embedded in that nature. it's wild in its own way. It's pretty unforgiving when it gets rainy and it rains a lot. The Atlantic coast is wet.

Especially in the summertime, you get those thunderstorms and the ground becomes thick, you got that Georgia mud. Yeah. The clay slipped and ate shit. Yeah. So many times. But Washington's a what, deciduous deciduous rainforest, right? We have the evergreens, so actually no. it's known for these the evergreen trees. Deciduous means that it sheds, right? Ever and I thought it was a type of it's not a that's a type of tree. What's the it's a type of rainforest that is We have the whole rainforest. We do have the whole rainforest.

Those trees don't ever shed. I mean there's some. They're out there. But it's where like Western Washington is known for its evergreen trees and it's always green and I I'm used to growing up with that and it's something I've missed in Colorado. Like it's the season of the sticks out here in a concrete jungle. It's kinda rough. Yeah. Kinda rough.

The spirituality of the AT is very present in those soulful mountains being so covered in green, thick forest canopy, and it feels like you're protected by Mother Nature, Pachamama. The whole time that you're out there and it feels it's just sacred in a way. Hard to describe unless you're there. the views are scarce, you know, I'm not gonna lie. It's not the grand Rockies. That's a That's the contrast that comes to mind first.

You're not having views for a hundred miles plus. Like you're just seeing what's in front of you. But it also forces you to be present in the moment and what's right there in front of you. Mm-hmm. And that's kind of cool in its own way. And I found that to be valuable by being on the East Coast, 'cause that's not the the nature experience that I'm used to having. so I was grateful for that. The Appalachians definitely tested me with their ruggedness, their directness.

And their high humidity and heat. There's several times I broke down in the middle of the trail and just had to yell at the top of my lungs, why am I doing this? Why am I doing why am I doing this? Like, I wanna quit so bad. Why am I doing this shit? But like we were talking about before, I didn't quit because I still had a reason to be out there. I was still thinking about life and thinking about myself and learning to be present with myself. I think that's what would the main goal was, even though I couldn't expressly say it at the time.

I was learning to be present with myself and accept. And I'm still working on that to this day. Accepting and realizing there are no bad parts. Don't try to fit into a box. Just be yourself. Yeah. Yes, because people love an authentic, calm person. And I'm slowly slipping into those shoes and it feels really right. Good. so this app trail, five and a half months, this was after nutrition. had really you'd really focused. There is this intermediary between Pacific Crest Trail, PCT, and Appalachian Trail. Yes. And I should say at this point, so I forgot to mention that I dehydrated my entire through hike of meals, which is an insane sentence. How many that's all five months of meals. Five and a half, yes. How many meals is that? See three times one seventy five, whatever that number is, dude. Yeah, that's Like almost five hundred. Five yeah, give or take. Yeah. It was a huge undertaking. I had my parcels lined up in my room, just like flat rate boxes, because that's what was most economical because I had some dense it's a dense stuff. Mm-hmm. It's heavy. So my dad worked and still works for the pro the post office. So it was super convenient, just on his way to work. Every now and then I'd text when I'm in town, Hey, mail me boxes thirteen through sixteen, please. And he'd Yeah, okay. I got you. And then then it would be in the mail when I got to the next town.

And I planned it all out. And it worked like a charm. I ate very well. I supplemented it with food from the grocery store because I made the mistake of only making four types of meals and I needed some variation in my food. That was a mistake. but I learned. And sorry, a at what point did you write the book? what is it? The The Art of Discomfort. The Art of Discomfort. I was so uncomfortable in the Appalachian Trail that I couldn't help but write a book titled by It. I was so jarred by it.

Just the ruggedness of those mountains. I didn't expect it because I'm like, those mountains aren't even four thousand feet. Little little bitch mountains. No, no, no, no, no. Nope. They got me. They got me good too. So, yes, The Art of Discomfort, I wrote in the second winter, which was after the Appalachian Trail. you wrote it after that? I did. Okay, okay. I did. After my friends on the Pacific Course Trail told me, You just did all this dehydrating. This knowledge you have is amazing. Why don't you share it? and this ties into me not realizing my own strengths, like I'm pretty bad at that, but I'm getting a lot better at it. accepting compliments and seeing the strengths of me and what they can do for the world. It's part of my hero's journey. Yeah. So this was part of that journey in writing this book. I committed to a breakdown of a thousand words per day, 'cause it's such an insurmountable task to write a book. So I thought about it, how could I make this more manageable? Hmm. And we just break down.

A big task into small chunks. That's how you do it. That's how you do any big thing. And so, yes, a thousand words a day. Over the course of a little over three months, I finished the rough draft. I sent it to Happy, who is an English major, one of my PCT friends, and she reviewed it for me. Love her. Happy if you're out there, love you. edited the rough draft, narrated it as well, which was an experience all in its own right, because it's very hard to listen to yourself. It's so difficult.

How do you feel now? I feel great now. Okay. It's part of self love, I think. Yeah. Part of self acceptance. Yeah. But having to listen to myself for like weeks straight was hard. I had a glass of water next to me at all times and I'd say each sentence with an incredible intention of sounding entertaining, like a a balance of entertaining but also genuine and real. And from my reviews that I got from it, I think I nailed it. You know? I don't know if you're any of your Listeners are interested, I've got an email. It'll be in the bio or whatever. And they can show notes. The show notes, it'll be in the show notes and they can ask me for the book and I will happily share the audio book or the PDF. in the art of discomfort, I think it was tied to this, or maybe in the whole journey, it was a f a big step from the logical to the emotional.

On the way to it. On the way to it. I'm on I'm on my way in this in this part of my life. Definitely on the way. Didn't realize it at the time. I'm just coming now. I'm just coming around now to realizing it now. Like right in this moment in my life. Now I'm realizing that I have such a gift for holding space for people. I can, you know, look someone in the eye and hear their thoughts, their tribulations, their trials in their life, and and provide perspective to them, a valuable perspective and another way to see things. that props them up and gives them confidence to move forward. And I find that invaluable about me. Yeah. It's a great service. I relate a lot to that because I too feel like I had a logical strength. I studied math and then finance and did the consulting and software development. Very, very, very analytical cut and dry.

And I prided myself on that. But recently I've realized, okay, maybe there's another side. Maybe there's the emotional side that should not be ignored, should not be discredited, but maybe should be considered. Yes, and I'll frame for you that you should be proud of that, that which you have built. You should be so proud of that because it's allowed you to build the life where you are now.

Now can develop something else alongside in parallel. Totally. Yeah, it's something be proud of. Yeah, I'm on the same path, brother. Yeah. To be in a container for people. Yeah. I'm proud of that. It's a beautiful place to be. So, App Trail, Art of Discomfort came from that. And it's it's called, just to make make it c the the subtext too, The Art of Discomfort, The Through Hiker's Guide to Success Through Nutrition. Yes. That's the full title. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I like that.

Thank you. Are you familiar with the comfort crisis? That book? I can already tell what it's about, but I haven't heard of it. Okay. It's good. I read it, I think it was the first yep, when I moved to Australia, it was my friend Megan gave it to me or maybe recommended. I think she gave it to me. And it's all about how the power of discomfort, the power of and and and and the the detriment of comfort and how comfort can cause harm.

Whereas challenge, difficulty, discomfort can really create resilience. There's a term for it. Are you ready? Yeah, hit me. Hormetic stress. Hormetic stress. It comes from the I don't know, neurolife hack community. That's where I heard about it from. Dr. Ronald Patrick type people. but it's that your body evolved over millions of years to handle stress. Right. It turns out if you're not using a machine, it rusts away and rots away.

Or it doesn't rust away, but it still creates stress for the everyday thing. That's another way to frame it. Right? Yeah. and that stress isn't a good kind. Right. Yeah. My God. So bad. That's why I think like reality TV exists, because these people have literally very they have such little discomfort in their life that they start to create stress from what any of us lay people would think is a gift, a blessing. They create stress from it. because they don't subject themselves to true difficulty and challenge. Now I'm not saying every single reality T V show ever is like no one's climbed a mountain. Maybe they have, but I think that's a generalizable statement I can make. I agree with it. And that's another topic we're gonna get into. Master Chef. Yes. well we can go there, but I think there's another trail in the interim if you care to go to the continental divide next.

Yes. Okay. So our timeline is college, Pacific Crest, weightlifting, Appalachian Trail, wrote the book. Continental Divide Trail. Okay. So my friend Happy, I mentioned her earlier. Yes. She and her sister had such grace, that they picked me up from El Paso, New Mexico somewhere near the Continental Divide Trail terminus on in the south. And they took me to the to the border for free. Like super nice.

Couldn't be more thankful. They just timed it for me. And we started together, which is an incredible blessing. Beautiful. To be to start such an epic journey with such a close friend. Yeah. It was a great time. So all these trails have a similar timeline. I did all of them northbound. And I guess I'll give a couple stats on the CDT, because it's different. It hits different. This shit's built different. the CDT is about 3,000 miles and there's a lot of alternatives.

That allow you to cut distance off or see something else if it if you so choose. because it's so long, it's hard to beat winter. It's the trail where it's hardest to race winter. And it goes through New Mexico and then you get into Colorado and then through Wyoming, and then you go through Montana last, and you end in Glacier National Park at the Canadian border. So I had a really hard time in the desert, man. Whoa, it was brutal. is brutal. New Mexico has no trees. You're out there, man. It's windy. It's unforgiving. The weather the co the weather on the Continental Divide is incredibly brutal. It's a wind tunnel, like almost the whole time, because of the lack of vegetation. And I had a hard time enduring in that brutal sun. There's also less water and it's also all cow pasture. So there's just cow poopies everywhere. You can play Frisbee with the cow poopies.

Sometimes they would come around when you're you know sleeping in the morning, give you a moo a little alarm moo. You just they're awake at all hours of the night and you can't do nothing about it. And just hope they don't step on you. Thankfully they didn't. But you're out there with them, you're drinking that cow tea we called it. Is that their milk? No, it's the water, because we drink out of their troughs. And just to be clear for your your list, that's our water sources, is their troughs, their water troughs?

They're agricultural troughs and you have to filter that water and you have to drink it. Really? Yeah, dude. So just to be clear to your listeners, we don't drink it raw. We have water filters. I just picture you bending over a trough just drinking next to the cow. No, no, lapping it up. Not even a stroke. but yeah, we have our water filters. We're very thankful for those water filters. They stop us from getting cryptosporidium and GRD and all sorts of norovirus.

And stuff.

Yeah, we're out there right with them. And so yeah. Desert brutal, not my element. I'm more of a mountain man. So I really enjoyed Colorado. I enjoy those high vistas and far reaching views. And really enjoyed Wyoming as well. It's got a lot of hidden gems. some very special mountainous terrain that I feel like is undiscovered. Glacier National Park was also amazing. Really enjoyed my time through there. I'd never been through the the Corridor of the Continental Divide. I'd never been through those areas before. So just lots of novelty in this season of my life. Yeah. And really enjoying that. The the trail of the CDT is the youngest of the three big trails, right? So it's only been around since like the eighties, which sounds old, but it's like young. It's like a little spunky teenager trail. A little rebellious. not really tamed yet. there's a lot of forest roads, cause you don't need to build a trail, you can just connect it with forest roads or roadwalking.

So there's a lot of that. Through the desert. Through the desert. Ugh. Brutal. Yeah. Absolutely brutal, dude. And they'll they'll get around to building it a a proper trail, but it's just not there quite yet. Yeah. So I found that particularly difficult mentally. You know, there's not much grandness grandeur. There's not as much grandeur around you at all times. Mm-hmm. So you forced to look inward. And by this time, I have seen so much.

That I've become desensitized a little bit to the beauty around me, which is something I've felt guilty about on the spot. Like most people only do a fraction or one of these trails if they're lucky. And here I am on number three, being so desensitized to natural beauty that I can't appreciate it fully. And I felt and still feel bad about that. How did you work through that? Hmm. I don't know if I have. I don't know if I have. I guess looking back and just Processing it with some hindsight of I should have waited until there was another season of reflection in my life like now. Now would have been a good time. you wrote that in your journal, Hindsight says you should have waited for another season. I I think I'm of the mind that things happen in a timely manner when they ought to. So even though there perhaps wasn't a season of deep reflection, why do you think it was important for you to go on that hike at that time?

Honestly, honestly, Anthony, I did it so I could round out the title of Triple Crowder. Okay. And that's not a good reason. Yeah. Frankly. It's not a good reason. I still had a good time, don't get me wrong. it's it's the least social trail. It's the most isolated trail. So it's it's a s it's a space that's particularly effective for self reflection. Like we talked about the container of self reflection that through hiking is. Yeah. Or that it can potentially be if you're gonna make it. And I feel like it could have been better used if I waited for that season in my life.

That's okay, you know, like I agree with you. No regret. Yeah. No regret. I I wanna why regret? Why? A hundred percent. I wanna go back to the desensitiz desensitization because I felt the same way when I was traveling the southern coast of Australia. It was month five, six, and at a certain point in Western Australia, it's just white sand beach, crystal clear water. And you yeah, beautiful.

Perfect, but you also I got to a point where I was like, yet another white sand beach, crystal clear water. You know, and it's like it was, it was sad. And I and I I str I wrestled with that because on one hand, I was aware that there was a part of me longing for and missing the mountains and the variety of nature, especially that the US provides. There's so much diversity. You have oceans, you have glaciers, you have mountains, you have forests, you have tropics in Hawaii, tundra in in Alaska. Now we're getting outside of the contiguous US, but still there's a lot of that variety. So on one hand I was genuinely missing that. But on the other hand, I wanted to be in a place where I was reflecting more fondly on how beautiful my surroundings were, because I cannot think of how many, maybe millions of people or more. want to be in that place and here I was and yet I felt this sense of Know this lack of luster. It's like, wow, this is this complacency. yet another and of course it's like the one of the fucking prettiest species in the world. So I'm trying to work on that, trying to figure out how to reframe it when I find myself in those situations. Yes. So relatable and yet at the same time not to most people. you don't think so? I don't think most people have done a journey that long to be ge to reach that point. I don't think men and I don't think many people have those resources. That's fair. I I wonder I do think that people may not it may not take everyone five or six months to get to that point too though. You know, I think there's a lot of there might be some people out there who, you know, they they take what they have I think everyone struggles with taking what they have for granted. The gr we talked about the grass is greener just, you know, what, twenty minutes ago. Yes. So I think that's a common shared human experience. I agree. But like I said, no no room for regret. Hundred percent. And I think part of my hero's journey is not running to experiences to fulfill myself, but finding purpose to fulfill myself instead. Like I could always go on another adventure, see another grand mountain top, go on another climbing trip and do something epic. But at the end of the day if I'm not connecting with humans on a deep intimate level, what am I doing, dude? What am I doing? So The burn community has helped me realize that about myself and mature into that. the the trails serve their purpose though. Like they serve the purpose of allowing me to be comfortable in my own skin and allowing me to just be present with myself and not it it allowed me to not be on the railroad tracks and to see another perspective, that it doesn't have to be that way. You can get off the tracks for a little bit, as long as you're responsible about it. Do it. But Seeking out human connection is what's most integral to human happiness. I don't know if you've heard of the Harvard happiness study, but it's very clear from their study of like eighty to a hundred years. They followed people their whole life and that's what they found. It's so obvious. Yeah. So I know what's gonna make a happy life, I know what's gonna minimize deathbed regrets, time to act. Yeah. Well, I I posed the question at the beginning of this interview why do you think people now are sort of waking up to, you know, becoming more conscious of where we're putting our time and the importance of connection with people. And maybe it's just that. Maybe it's that, you know, over the last twenty years of the internet sort of infiltrating our experience and promising more connection, it's done the opposite. And we're starting to realize that. And we're recognizing, all right, let's take a step towards connection. Let's take a step away from pseudo connection and genuine looking at someone's eyes.

Carrying space, holding space for them, listening to, you know, what they have and sharing our own tidbits along the way. Right. And I think in to to aid that movement along, we have to have compassion for what a dopamine hit that has been for people. Yeah. Like hopping around from interaction to interaction, just having your novelty, centers of your brain blown up repeatedly. It's awesome, dude. but for a more sustained, slower burning, permanent form of happiness that I can take to the grave, like I need To do exactly what you just said. Yeah. That's what's up. Yeah, we live in a a a dopamine peak obsessed world which is not sustainable. It's not. By definition. It's chasing the dragon. It's just another drug. Yeah. It's another drug, Anthony. Yeah. Yes. So. I love where this is going. Let's keep that. Let's keep that energy. Yeah. You having fun? I'm having so much fun, dude. Fuck yeah. Glad to be here with you. Me too. so Continental Divide Trail, CDT. How many months was that one? Five and a half as well? About the same. Yeah, okay. then Master Chef. Master Chef. Okay. Yes. we've taken a lot of little tangents. So just to make sure we're sticking true to our timeline, we ha you since you started hiking, the fur well, not since you started hiking, rather, since you did the first of the big three, the PCT. You have not had not at this point gone back to a traditional job. Correct. Did you go back to any means of making money? None. So how long was the period from when you left that first big boy job to the next full time job that you had? See I left in March of 2020 and I didn't find work until September of '23 Wow. So you saved up all that for three years of bopping. I bopped. I booped. I came soft. I conquered. Yeah, dude. What a trip. What a trip this life has been and continues to be. Yes. Well, I I love that because I think it honestly it it eases my mind knowing that 'cause I I've never taken like a really hard break away from work. yeah, yeah.

I'm happy I could provide that perspective. Yeah. I'm happy. Yeah. so still not doing your big boy job, exploring stuff. Master chef. Yes. So I was in a town called Anaconda. I was about, I don't know, five hundred miles from the terminus. This is the end of my triple crown. So my mind's starting to think, what's next? What's next, Jake? What's next, Safari?

And what came up in Anaconda is I used to watch Master Chef with my dad at home and we would cook dinners mo based off the show. That's how we would culinarily explore. And with my friends too. There's so many good ideas and like how to plate food and make it look nice. so in the little hot hiker hostel I lay on my cot and I just threw in a shot in the dark application. And no idea was gonna come of it. I said I'll find work if nothing happens, but I would like to go on live television. Wouldn't that be sick?

So closer to the terminus, maybe by a couple hundred miles, I get a phone call. I get a phone call and they say, Would you like to interview on the phone about potentially being on Master Chef? And I fuck yeah. yeah. I'll do that. So thus began the about four month process of applying and sending in videos of all my skills, my wardrobe. Your appearance is so important on live television as it is in everyday life. my life story.

And that's where I really first had to sell myself. Mm. Yes. And as we talked about, part of my hero's journey is that I have a hard time seeing my own strengths. And that's something I'm getting better at. And that's kind of where it started now that I think about it. Like, sell us yourself, dude. Are you good enough for us to spend tens of thousands of dollars filming you and to fly you out to LA to put you up in a hotel for weeks, dude? Are you good enough? the answer is yes. Yes, dude. so over that four month period of sending and all that stuff, they sent me the email.

At long last, because after all up until that point, it was just an investment and I don't know what's gonna come of it. Mm-hmm. It's a blind investment. Continued shots in the dark. But they decided out of thirty six thousand people that applied, they flew out seventy-six and I was one of them. And I felt Wow. And there's the gratitude again. Yeah. So grateful. So grateful that they thought that of me. And this triple crown journey was part of what sold me, obviously. And I learned to sell it and they accepted it.

Felt great. Yeah. And again, thankfully, my dad was gracious and I'm grateful for him. He allowed me to stay at home again, you know, going through that application process and supporting me, talking to me, like how how should you sell yourself? Like just giving me advice. My old man, old man Daniel. And you had some support at MasterChef too, right? I did. man. So they flew me out, 76 people, and we went through a few rounds of elimination. So when they fly you out, Just to lay the groundwork in the context for your listeners, you're not on the show when you fly out. Right. You still have to go through a couple runs of elimination and competition to get that coveted apron. If you've ever watched the show, you get an apron. Sick. And so they did the first round of eliminations, which involved a mass cooking type of competition. The context of that competition was there was a large gathering of v veterans and we're cooking them all flaignon.

Doing flame mignon and some roasted veg and some potato salad. And so we went head to head with the other team. So we each were about thirty five thirty so people. They just divided the grip up in half. And I took charge of the flame mignons, which is the hardest job. So I had literally like twenty cast irons on all the grills and all the Viking equipment. And I was firing up twenty fucking steaks. Twenty hard to cook steaks because flet mignons are lean and they overcook quick. And I have to monitor twenty of them. This is insane. That is insane.

I did though. my my competitors, I'll call them, my competitors, my friend enemies, they said, Don't fuck it up, dude. Don't fuck this up repeatedly to me. And they put the pressure on, they laid it on thick. Yeah. but I delivered. And the you know that moment on T V where they cut into it? Perfect. Perfection. Medium rare. That's what you like to see. Small banner green on the top, so it's minimal. So you seared it right. The char was perfect. And we beat the other team.

They did great too, just to give rec credit where credit is due, they did great on their jobs too. You know, they roasted those veggies perfectly, they made a great sauce to go with and the potato salad was perfection as well. Hell yeah. They carried their weight. But I had the hardest job. I also had to season the steaks perfectly too and just time everything right and Wow, what an experience that was.

I'm not super familiar with the premise. Yeah. what's is it like there is one ultimate master chef? Is it a team that wins the whole thing? What is one? There's one. There's only one there's only room for one here. Okay. So you start out as competing teams and then is it the team that wins, then they split into two teams and then compete and then you do it like that way? How it works at home for the viewers is one person gets eliminated per week.

Okay. So you kinda like tune it into people's like routines, like here we got the master chef show every week. Hey, one person gets eliminated every week. Till you get down to the last two, then you go into head off, head to head competition, and then there's w one last man or woman standing and they're the master chef. Okay. And there's all sorts of things that come with that, even if you don't make it all the way to the top. Okay. Were you the master chef? No, so I was not. so I made it to the top twenty three. Wow. So how many so repeat how many people applied? 36,000. 36,000 to 76 to 23. Yes. Wow. We made it past that first round of elimination with the steaks. Yeah. So that cut it down by half. Yep. And then we went for another round of elimination where you submit to the judges, which are Gordon Ramsey, Eron Sanchez, and Joe Bastianich. You submit four dishes, they pick one for you to cook. Okay. Right. And now we're doing now you're on T V. we made it. I ended up in the B roll. That's as far as I made it. Which is cool, dude. I made it. Yeah. but this is the rapid fire. Bring your dishes up to the judges, they try it, they comment on it, and they either send you away or keep ya or give you the apron. Like this is the apron time. This is the apron. This is the portal to the apron. And I didn't get the apron. I'm not mad about it at all. I had such a good time out there. Okay. It was amazing, amazing. I wouldn't treat it for anything. Yeah. but my my dish was steak, of course, duh, because I cooked it so well. And then pomegranate reduction And some potatoes. Mean potatoes. and overcooked the steak a little bit under pressure. I had forty-five minutes to cook my whole dish, which was like way too long. So I like fiddling around like, what do I do? I don't know. I'm on TV. so much pressure. And a tie back in, my friends from the Pacific Crest Trail flew out to support me. Yeah. Which I was was and continue to be so grateful for. They wore these shirts that said had my picture on the front and some like smart ass st Phrase about me on the back of the shirts and they didn't even tell me about it. They flew out with those shirts on and made me laugh and made me cry. But they came out and showed their love and support, and that meant so much to me. They're right alongside as I was in the moment in in the competition too, which is really special. Love to hear that. Yeah. I love being supported. Yeah. We need that. Go back to community. We need it so bad, especially now in the world so atomized.

By short attention spans and all the things that contribute to that. But we can make change. A hundred percent. We can be the change we want to see in the world. I'm doing it. Yeah. Each and every one of your listeners can do it too. Yeah. I believe in everyone each and every one of you. So what was the next change after Master Chef? Hmm. So after I lost, packed it on back home and started looking for work. And my thought process to that was, okay, I've been to around I've been to all these amazing places around this country.

Where would I like to live? So I applied to civil engineering jobs in those places. I applied to Asheville, I applied to Pinedale, Wyoming, I applied to Colorado, which is where I'm today, and ended up getting such a good job, grateful for it. It was the highest paying job out of all the ones I applied for. I interviewed like eleven times over the course of like a year. Like I was being a little picky. But I told them about my experience in life up to this point.

And if there was any semblance of a negative reaction to it, I'm like, how am I gonna work for you? Mm-hmm. No. So I could tell immediately by Jana's her name. Love Jana. My supervisor, for supervisor. she just was so in tune to what I was saying. She's such an open person. She's a mom of four. She's an amazing woman. She was just like, I'm so happy for you and your experience and how it's grown you as a person. Yes, we want you on this team. Get your ass to Colorado. So Got the job, packed my Prius, which is the car I had driven at the time, full of my shit. That's the same Prius no, wait. No, you've a Leaf now, not a Prius. Yeah, you gotta leave now. Yeah. But I packed it full of shit, put my bikes on the back. the hybrid battery was kinda shot, so it could hardly make it up mountain passes. I actually got pulled over on the interstate for going too slow. I was doing twenty five and seventy. Hmm. I'm trying. what came of that?

It was just a welfare check. Like he sent me on my way. okay. I just like it's like a semi truck, you just have your hazard lights on and you just pray and hope. No one ruins you. People are paying attention. 'Cause semis had to go with flow too up the mountain passes, so it's fine. So he he he pulled you over and was like, You good? And you're like, Yeah, I'm all right. Yeah. Okay. And he's like, All right, dude, here's the next mountain pass. Good luck. See ya. Yeah. Peace. Cool. And then how long were you at that role? before I go into that, I would say I also left home with five hundred bucks in my bank account.

So there was some financial stress to go along with it. 'Cause I'd really really let it burn to the end and learned a lot about myself in the process, but came out with some financial stress. But I arrived at a friend's house and he was kind enough to let me stay for a couple months as I worked and got back on my feet. So I was able to stack some cash and couch surf for a little while until I found a room to rent. but to answer your question, I stayed at that job from September twenty three up till June of this year, June twenty sixth. Yeah.

I'm on week five of freedom. Week five of freedom. Week five of freedom. And you mentioned through that experience you felt depression, went to therapy. what was it that like walked me through sort of that story arc of getting the job, feeling excited about it, and then ultimately leading to depression and quitting?

Yes, this is w the most prominent cycle in my life that I keep repeating that I'm not trying to stop. So that you're not trying to stop? That I am trying to stop. okay, okay. Trying to fix it. Yeah. So going into this job, it's different than most engineering jobs. So a quick review of the job arc. I did the inspection work at the start, intellectually unfulfilling. Mm-hmm. Went to the analytical job. Eventually analytically unfulfilling and repetitive. Now we're gonna now this job is project management, which is something different every day.

You're never doing the same thing every day. So I'm like, okay, great. I'm not gonna burn out the same way, at least. So you have a set of projects you do that you're in charge of that taxpayer money is paying for. So you're s you're a steward of taxpayer money. It's very important. There's processes involved to make things accountable, to hold contractors accountable, to make sure that every cent is being spent wisely. So there's pride in that and responsibility.

And no day was the same, so that was good. So at the start, to paint the picture, at the start I like, Wow, this is amazing. I'm in charge. I'm large and I'm in charge of my jobs. This feels great getting her done. Improving the public space with mobility, widened sidewalks, guardrail to people's houses that have been hit and their families feel like they're in danger every day. Mm-hmm. Addressing these problems felt good. It felt great at the start. but there's so many barriers up to doing that work because it's just the nature of government work.

Red tape. It's like there's words for it. It's such a problem. to spend those resources. And that eventually started bur to burn me out, but I was ignoring it because the pay was good. Mm-hmm.

So year one was good, I got a great review. Year two was neutral, I got fine. And then year three I got a poor review. And I just kept going down, down, down, and I got put on a performance improvement plan. And this is the vulnerable part for me. It's been hard to talk about because it's that feeling of being useless again. But I need to reframe it in this is pushing me to the path I need to be on instead. So I did my best during the pip, but it was let go. I was either told Terminate yourself or we'll do it. so I resigned. But during that exit that exit meeting, I was told we've seen the good in you. We love you so much. We want you to go 'cause they know I want to be a firefighter at this point. They know I'm talking about it with everyone. I'm very open. They know I want to be on that path. They said, We will recommend you anywhere you want to go. We will recommend you so strongly. 'Cause we know this job's right for you. We know you now.

And we want you to succeed, and that meant the world to me because I wasn't just let go with nothing. Yeah. Gratitude again. Gratitude again. Yes. Yeah. That's the arc of that job. it's so beautiful that you Well, two things. One Obviously your Performance is indicative of where your heart was, right? Not indicative of where your skills are. Yes. Right. And I think it's really telling that your employer recognized that and they saw we can't fault you because you're when your heart is in it, you excel. And when your heart's not in it, you don't. And that's I think that's the gist of it, you know. There's I tried to force it for three months. The pit was three months. Yeah. I tried my darndest to sit there, I actually I took the recycling bin from my cubicle and I filled it with ice water. And I would dunk my head about every half hour. Just to force myself to be engaged. Like that's the drastic measures that it r that it required. Yeah. That's how that's that's the extent of the hell I was in. And boy was it hell.

I tried so hard to make it work, but I was just making errors because I just couldn't care. Yeah. I tried so hard to care, but I could not. And but I now know what I want to care about, and that is firefighting and paramedic work. Yeah. Beautiful. That's where my heart's set. 'Cause I have like we talked about, that incredible ability to hold space for people in their time of need. Yeah. And I don't know if I talked about this yet, but my My dad had a heart attack when he was when I was 15 and he was in his 50's.

And he went into atrial fibrillation, and that is for your listeners' education, that is a heart rhythm that will kill you. It'll kill you if you don't fix it. And so one night as we were going to bed, he said, Jake, my chest is tight. And it's not from working out So please call the ambulance. You know, and he said, whatever happens, I love you.

And so the the ambulance came and took him away. And he how it works in reality is different from what people think. So they think that when you're dead and you're heart you're flatlined, they shock you back. How it works is you're an atrophibrillation, they see from the EKG that that's what's going on, and so they need to stop that. So they actually shock you to flatline you. And then And they rely on the heart's natural capabilities to come back online. And it did. It did. He's lucky as hell. He's so lucky, that man. and he said if you if I wasn't there that night, if I was like at my mom's or something, 'cause they divorced when I was three, he would have died. He wouldn't have called the cops, he would have just went to bed. Who knows what the who knows what that alternative universe would have been like. But but But anyway, to paint the picture, they came and helped me in my time of need and I want to return the favor to the world.

That's why I want to go into this profession. It's purposeful, it's meaningful, this camaraderie. And it's intense. I'm intense. Fiery. Yeah. And I can't wait to make money with it. Like what? I can do that. Yeah. So two cycles of job burnout. Three. Yeah, the inspection work, the bridge work, and then Aurora.

Three cycles. And finally breaking out. I think the third time's a charm, Anthony. Yeah. I think I've done eight. With a raise each time though, probably. With a raise each time? When you hop around you typically get a raise. ish. like up, up, up, quit, started my own business. You started your own business, that's dope. God's so brave, man.

Yeah. I respect that. Yeah, well I'm about to quit that one. No shame in it. 'Cause you tried. Well, I think this kind of gets back to the point of the podcast now. I I don't think I'll ever be able to not work in an independent capacity. I think I'm just recognizing that you know, maybe it was Third Time's a charm. I had startup work, another startup, a startup studio, and then that's when I quit. And it was like sort of Business, then PM, then software. And then I quit that job, which was the highest pay bump, three times what I got paid at my the prior job. Yeah, it was a nice pay raise. I I stayed there for a third of the time. So I made the same amount of money. Yeah. in net in netted out to the same. Pay comes burn out, I feel. Can. Yeah. Can, yeah, can. Good free frame. So then I I came up or I I realized I still was drinking the Kool-Aid. And and much like you, it seems like you and I were good we were good at the re like being on the railroad. We were good at it. I did well in high school to go to a good college. I did well in university to get a good job. Like I think I did relatively well. But then you your my much like your your own performance started to dip once my heart wasn't in it.

And so once I quit my last full time job, that's when I started my own software business and just doing that on a freelance consulting route, which is what I've been doing the last three years. But it's like a it's like a fake quit. Interesting. It's quitting it's taking a step away from a lot of the like infrastructure bureaucracy that I didn't like. and feeling very especially in like a software role where You you do have meetings, but a lot of your work is just like sitting in front of your computer and doing the thing. So Which is coding. Yeah. Well or now chatting with Claude. But but work smart, not hard. Yeah. But regardless, I was able to take one step away from the a lot of the stuff I hated about jobs, like the sh the the the importance of showing face for the sake of showing face, the all the little fucking virtual happy hours that no one's enjoying. We're playing this fucking weird video game together because everyone's remote and it's like what what are we doing here? There's a lot of I that last job I had in particular, I didn't love the way that my boss treated people. she yeah, she did not treat people particularly well. Like one of my coworkers, he created these like really dope shirts for the they they sent out like they let anyone create a design for a t-shirt or sweatshirt or whatever.

I love the designs. Like they're fucking sick. Like they're so cool. a good chunk of people bought them. We had like a credit, like we didn't have to buy them with our own money, but we got like, hey, we're gonna encourage our employees to create these designs, and then we'll cover the cost of at least two items or at most two items. And if you want a third, you can buy it yourself. Great. It's like, all right, this is sick. We get on the all hands, and our our manager is like It's a really poor brand practice to change the logo of a company in the like like I do not appreciate this design. I was like, Are you fucking kidding me? Like that and so I I messaged She's on the railroad track. She's on the railroad. She's on the railroad track. So I messaged Charlie. I was like, brother, you fucking crushed it. Like I love that jacket. I still wear it to this day. you're holding space. Yeah. You held space in that moment. And so good. Yeah. Well I I mean, he needed he should have been supported. Yes. We should all be supported. Right. Yes. This is like such a ridiculous thing.

And unless you're an asshole, don't support those. Yeah. Yeah. So anyway, I I it's just like a bunch of those little things that, you know, and like asking people to do things, including myself to do work, doing it, and they're like, Well that's not what I wanted. It's like, well you told me to do it my way, I did it my way. If that's what you wanted, you should have fucking done it yourself. Like you're you're you're telling us you want us to be autonomous.

And yet you're taking away our autonomy by, you know, keeping us in a box. So eventually I quit. And then that's when I started my own thing and I like, maybe I just need to take a step away from like you know, like a full time job, like a boss and a salary and all that. And I think it was great because it seems like a common thread of this conversation and kind of your your story and my story as well is Looking back, there's a lot of things that now I know I will do differently. Mm-hmm. But they catalyzed where I am today. And for that I'm grateful. So I think the step away and really providing me with providing me with confidence that I can run a business. I like the business side of stuff is really not the hard part. I have enough of a background. You you know, I have a lot of resources that help me. My dad runs his own practice. So we've had a lot of conversations around like how to just manage business and stuff of things of that nature. So I think it instilled the confidence that it can. I think at the end of the day, whether I'm working for a company or doing independent client work, the the realization that I d I detest building something for someone else when they get to reap the rewards and well actually that's not true. If it's a fun project and I like the idea, like my coach needs us an app and I've been working with him. Kelsey needs an app and I've helping her. Like when there's people and a friend in Perth needed an app, helped him. So like when there's people You're seeing a need of fulfilling it. Yeah.

And it's like I I want I wanna see them succeed, so if I can help them succeed, it's very different when it's like a product that I just could not give a fuck about. And it just like I'm banging my head against the wall in the meetings with these com kind of things. So I think I'm recognizing it's a skill. Maybe there's some opportunity for monetization down the line, but in terms of a day to day thing, I'm kidding myself if I tell if I tell anyone.

This is what I want to do. This is my job. I enjoy doing this. I don't. I need to find something. And that's the whole premise behind this. you know, I wanna be able to engage with people, I wanna be able to connect with other people starting their own things, entrepreneurs, businesses, like how can I help support you? Maybe it's just face time you know, maybe it's I'm giving you a platform to share your story so that people, your audience, your customers, whomever, are gonna understand where you're coming from, are gonna understand like why.

Why they should care, you know, at the end of the day. maybe that's it. Maybe that's the business. I don't know exactly what it is, but that's what we're trying to figure out. I would love for that to be the business. If I could just sit here and have a conversation every day and that be my job and get paid for it, because people do that. They do. They do. I might be talking into existence right now. You might be. 100%. I would love that because I feel like that's I truly am a much better conversationalist and far more engaged in conversations than I think I am skilled at engineering and engaged with engineering.

Well said, I believe you. Yeah. As I'm in front of you right now. Yeah. And I like the the point you bring up about wanting people to be in a space of not desiring to disassociate whatsoever from what they're doing. Mm-hmm. Because I believe now that only being in such a headspace can you thrive. Yeah. Yeah. If you're doing something like that work you described or a product you could not give a fuck about, you're never gonna thrive. Your heart's never gonna be in and you're gonna eventually fizzle out, or even worse Then then fizzling out is you end up going numb. True. And then you just go stay on the rail tracks and it becomes like a fish is in water and it doesn't know it's in water. It's like this is my existence. Yeah. It slowly fades into that and I've experienced that cycle now three times. And you gotta get out of that shit. I like that. I like that it's more dangerous to be numb than to fizzle out. Yeah. And kinda like that my life exploded. Yeah.

Like at least at least it's like a hard line in the sand and you can't just like pretend like, okay, we can keep on trudging through this. And when I left my job that day, like people opened up in a huge way because I was telling them what happened and a lot of them are like, I have responsibilities that I need to fulfill and that is why I cannot leave this job. And almost all of them there are a few there are a few, actually quite a few, that actually find so much purpose in that job. Mm-hmm. And I love that for them. Yeah. But there are just as many, if not more that are being ground into the ground, like I was. And they opened up to me on that day that I left the office. And that was a huge perspective. I didn't expect that at all. Like having kids too soon or before you found the c the person found the career that's right for them or having a house and a mortgage okay I do too, fuck. Or having too many too many financial responsibilities I'll call it. Yeah. That you need to fulfill that you cannot leave to do self exploration. Right. And Well let's let's dive into that 'cause one of my questions is you mentioned right now in the the what you shared with me that you're in a period of experimentation and I love experimenting. I feel like life is an experiment.

And yet I think so many people see experimentation as a phase. You experiment so that they think of life as a scientific method, right? You run an experiment to draw to get to a conclusion. Which to a certain extent is true, right? Like we're experimenting so that we can learn and point in the right direction. But I do feel like there's this continual experimentation of life. It's continuous. There's no there's no end. There's not necessarily a goal you're seeking. so throughout your journey, there's been a lot of experimentation.

Where are you currently in that space? Are you I like I know I just said there's no end to it, right? But I think there is some sort of conclusion you can draw. And it seems like you're in an experimentation phase, but you've also drawn the conclusion that you know what you want next. You know you want to find purpose through firefighting. Yes.

Huh, I'm dead set on the firefighting and the purpose there. I've ridden along with crews. The public can do this, like you can just apply to ride along and join a crew for a shift. So that's how you know, I've taken initiative. this is not something that I'm just saying, I've taken actions and I have a a roadmap, a solid roadmap with actionable items on it that I've been executing. so I know that's that's gonna happen. it's just a matter of when. Yeah. But I have other stuff other irons in the fire too because this is a time where I have flexibility and bandwidth. Yeah. So I'm like, wow, I need to harness this. This is the good shit. so I'm gonna try to sell my my fire spinning gigs, which has been part of the burning scene. Fuck yeah. Yeah. I picked up Dragonstaff, Helios Dragon Staff and What is that? It's a it's a fire props, so there are many props, they in all Is that the one I saw at the at your place at the cookbook club with the The long one with the three Yeah, that's exactly it. Okay. That's the one. I'm gonna draw draw a photo of it. Yes. Yeah. It looks exactly like that. So bad, so bad. I picked that sucker up last last November and a friend who I was camping with at the burn. Cool. He'd been spinning for like a year, and I'd been wanting to spin for like a year. So I asked him to take me under his wing and he did.

He told me everything to buy and everything, and even before I left the Bern I ordered it to my house. I'm like, this is it. This is it. This is a new dimension for me to enjoy at every festival in burn I go to. And it's it's it's morphed and evolved into something so beautiful. Yeah. Well I I think there's an opportunity here too where We talked a little bit about the dichotomy between gratitude for what you have and wanting change or wanting more. And that kinda opened up the conversation to this yes and attitude. So, you know, maybe it's not a you have these irons and a fire to figure out which one works, but instead it's you have firefighting and you have paid gigs and you have something else. Potentially paid gigs. Yeah. And part of it is not being attached to the pay. Mm-hmm. That's a big part of it, and I'm very aware of that.

Whatever comes of it comes of it. I've already made my friend smile. That's good enough for me. That's beautiful. Yeah. I love that. I also perform at the burns. So before they burn the big thing, this is like the main event of a burn. Yeah. They have what's called conclave. It's a line of fire spinners that go out and perform and just walk the perimeter of the effigy. And they just it's like a it's like a preview of what's about to happen. Hey, get jazzed up, y'all. Cool. in in Welcome Home, which is the burn that I just went to, I went first. I asked to go first.

Just putting myself out there like that and it felt so good. Yeah. Felt so so good. I got lots of love and support. I was just walking around the the the event grounds, roaming around and just getting compliments left and right, like hey Safari, that was badass dude. You keep doing that. Safari, can you teach me? And that feels so good. Such such a good energy to take in. Just feel so accepted. I love that. Would you consider yourself pretty risk averse?

No. Okay. Wait, risk aversal I answered that reac reactively. Reflexively. Well you said that bold bold of you to ask to go first, so I'm wondering like was how much of a hurdle was that? none. Okay, okay, okay. I'm just in a phase of finding my voice. Yeah. Yeah, okay. So you mentioned at the very beginning of the chat. Finding your voice. What does that mean? Hmm, it means care it it means being more conscious of the way I carry myself and speaking up And not putting a filter up to everything I say. not being reactive, it means being genuine and authentic. It means finding my voice. Mm-hmm. Speaking my mind, not being afraid of what other people think. Mm-hmm. Because I'm not an asshole. I'm also not an asshole. I'm not that either. Mm mm. But I shouldn't filter myself so hard because it comes off as inauthentic and then human connection doesn't happen. Mm-hmm. Which is my purpose on earth not being fulfilled. Yeah. So that ain't gonna work. So that's what I'm finding.

Yeah. How are other ways you find connection in your life?

We all already went over the burn community. Mm-hmm. We also have the through hiker community out here. Mm-hmm. Like they're coming through right right now. The through hikers are coming through. They're always because it's the season. the continental divide trail? Yes. Which for your listeners. Is there a hike through in Colorado? It's so I was about to just say exactly. Great tangent. For your listeners' education, it overlaps almost all of the Colorado Trail. And they do that just for efficiency. Why are you gonna build two trails through Colorado? Just use the one that's already there, dude. Mm-hmm. So It overlaps almost the entire length of the Colorado Trail and there are spots where it dips into a point where you could get off and go back to civilization to get food and a shower and a beer and a burger. So I can go to those spots and provide what's called trail magic. Trail magic is when you bring even the most basic of things like a cold soda and the people that are coming into those spots where you could go off into civilization, they're tired, hungry, thirsty, and just famished. And so even the simplest thing that you can provide them with makes them feel so much joy. Cool.

I've yet to do it, but it's it's a way I can build community. Yeah. A way I can experience the human connection. Can a non through someone who hasn't done that through hike provide do that? No. Okay. I'm just kidding. Of course. my god. Well I was thinking if we wanted to do a hike sometime, we could do a hike and we could conclude with something like that. That's that sounds beautiful. Okay. I would love that. Cool. Absolutely. Let's do it.

Cool. I I have a couple of quotes that you put that I really loved. One of them just stuck out to me because I've I find myself in conversations around technology often and I don't have a aversion to technology. I have an aversion for the towards the adoption of technology for the purpose of adopting technology. Interesting phrasing. I like that. Yeah, I think we should, you know, anything that we choose to welcome into our That's exactly what I was gonna say. I think you should have an intention behind it. and the intention shouldn't just be to continue on the track trajectory you're on. Railroad tracks again. Yeah. Right. there it is. Exactly. You said fuck smartphones. They're more trouble than they're worth. And I believe this is right after Is that my journal? Yeah. I forgot about that one. What is it? Fuck smartphones, what? They're more trouble than they're worth. yeah. But I think it's because yours broke and then your dad sent you a new battery or something and then you had some other shit to deal with. But I still thought that's funny because 'Cause I feel like I experience that thought on a easily a weekly basis. If not I'm so torn 'cause it's like I appreciate everything that it does. Like recording this right now, I appreciate. But I also sometimes just want to fucking throw it against the wall and get like a brick. You know, Nokia. Nokia brick. I feel that. another quote I really liked I wanted to spend all the money I made over the years, but I didn't want to truly live my life until I was fifty plus. I'm out here living my life to the fullest. I was that someone else or is that me? it was your response to someone's question, but I don't remember exactly what her question was. I think it was a simple question of like, why are you on this hike now? and that was your response.

I also feel an aversion towards the traditional structure of retirement of work your ass off, hate your job until you're sixty five, and then you get to enjoy life then. Only then can you enjoy life. I hate that. Yes, I had a coworker who had been there for twenty, twenty five years and she went in for surgery and passed away. Seriously, seriously sad. But it kinda propelled me. I use death as a springboard for action. Yeah. In my life when it hits me. And this was no exception. But she man, I talked to her about the job like she also didn't like it. Yeah. But she was like really high up there and getting paid well and supporting her family. Yeah. But she didn't even get to enjoy any of the retirement or the pension or anything, dude. Like she just went in a surgery and unfortunately I don't know what the details, but she didn't enjoy it. Yeah. And that's a shame. That's a crying shame. Right. That's a crime. Yeah. Anyway.

Yeah. I mean it's it's it's so common you get people who maybe not so common, but it's it's common enough to where I want to avoid it. Yeah. you know, maybe not the majority of people I'm hoping the major that at least the majority of people get to appreciate retirement if they choose to take that path. But you hear so many horror stories of people who have all these grandiose plans and then never get a chance to make it. That happens all the time, even on a smaller scale. Like I want to do XYZ and people are like in an elevated emotional state and they make all plans, but then And that's part of my journey too is being a man of my word and actually doing it. I'm pretty decent at it, but I'm just trying to get better and make that accuracy a hundred percent absolutely as often as I can. I'll never be perfect, but I'm trying to get better at it. That's part of my journey. Absolutely. So what is the fullest? You said you want to live your life to the fullest. Describe the fullest. Ooh. Ooh. I would say the fullest life is as packed full of genuine, authentic human interaction and love without strings attached as can be.

And that's what a burn is to me. Mm-hmm. Yeah. That's what a mature form of burning is to me, 'cause I bet when you hear the word festival or the word burn, you think of people doing a bunch of drugs and partying. Mm-hmm. but there's a more mature version of it too, which is the space that we formed. Our campus called the heart space. Mm-hmm. And that is our attitude. Yeah. You know, we ha you can go out there and find the party energy what w when you want. Yeah, the The burns are what you make of them. But our space is intentional and full of love and it's a place where you can come for rest and solace and to be heard and loved. And people come from all over the burn for our energy. I've seen it. And our camp has only been around for two years. It's already magnetic as hell. Yeah. And it's only gonna get better. And I'm so happy to be part of it and grateful. I don't have exactly that experience, but I do have one that parallels it, which is my hula fam, Hulaween down in Florida, if you're familiar with that festival. It's a music festival in like Spiritiswane.

Yeah. There's a burn that happens in October. And if you go to Huluen afterwards, they call it Alcoween because it's alchemy. cool. Alchoween. Yeah. So yeah, I'm familiar somewhat. I've never I'm not familiar too much with it, but anyway, go ahead. Well, that c community, our campsite, we don't have a a fun name for it. maybe we'll come up with one. I don't know. It'll come on the times, right? Yeah. but it's it's like a weird just amalgamation of friends and friends of friends and things of that nature, but I I truly think it was the first time that I I got to experience like love in the sense of a community, not like purely familial or romantic relationship. it really is and and and you know, a festivals certainly get a party reputation. understandably so, to be clear. Like that I'm not trying to argue that it's not a fucking party, like it's a party. Yeah. But it's also so much more. It's also genuine connection with people.

I'll never forget this moment of fourth day of the festival, final day. I just I felt like I wanted something. Like I knew I needed something. I didn't know what, but I needed something. So there's a little part of Huluen called Spirit Lake, which is a lake that they project like images and videos on top of and it's very spooky and mystical and it's Halloween, so it's extra spooky and weird.

Yeah, it's cool. And I guess it's so much fun. And we were doing a I just did a little lap around Spirit Lake and I couldn't find anything that was enticing me until I finally saw a a DJ spinning he wasn't spinning vinyl, it was still, you know, digital decks, but it was like vinyl kind of like vibes. I was like, damn, this is really nice. But there's like one person in there who's just like cross armed like Interesting. Yeah, and I was like, This is weird. I don't know what's going on.

So I I f I did another lap and I was like, all right, maybe this isn't the vibes. And then just out of the mist, I see my buddy Devin walking over. And I was like, Devin Devin sounds cool. Devin's great. Already. Yeah. Love you, Devin. And Devin was like, Anthony. And we gave each other a big hug. And he's like, dude, I need something. I don't know what. And I like, follow me. So the two of us walked into that stage, and there was just like One guy with his f arms crossed, someone in the back kind of like dancing, but not doing anything crazy. And both of us were like, this is fucking gas. Like everything this DJ's laying down is fire. I don't know how the whole fucking festival isn't here. So we just go up to the DJ and we just start dancing. I've got my fan. I'm like dancing. He's got like a little flow toy. We're we're, you know, doing our thing. And like we're so in it. And 20 minutes later, we finally are like pick our heads up out of Whatever that was, and we look around and the entire dance floor is you brought the vibes, dude. We really did. You brought it in. And like and like we were just giving so much love to DJ and he was giving it right back to us because he he knew what we did too. Like we were all aware of what Devin and I were able to curate. Yeah. And so that night, like we went, we walked back to the camp together. We walked to the showers together and like just had another three I mean, the shower line was pretty long, so maybe Two hours, hour and a away. Is it a shower? That's luxurious shit. Super nice. It's really nice. I'm not gonna lie. I've been to a lot of festivals and things that you don't have one, but this one every night take a shower. It's wonderful. Yeah, yeah. It's not a it the first like three years I went ice cold water. So you do pay a little bit of a price. and it's October and it's it's Florida, but like some of them are chilly. I don't remember if this year had hot water or not. I think it may have, but Regardless, yeah, spent like two hours just like chatting and decompressing about that. But I truly feel like, you know, the the love that's felt at a festival on a, you know, intimate conversation, camping kind of level. And then you have this like macro sense of love of like everyone connecting you know, with an artist under the same roof and like you can just feel the energy of everyone around you. Like it's fair it gets a party reputation, but it's also fair that it gets a lot more depth and I think it should credit should be given where it's due, just as you said earlier. Yeah. yeah. It should. It's allowed me to mature a lot. Yeah. Counterintuitively, if that's what you believe about. Hey, right. Yeah. I agree. I've got another quote for you. Yeah, hit me. Hit me. Jess, if you're out there, you're going to know this one. huh. If yesterday feels like a week ago, you know you're living life right. Ooh, I like that.

Beautiful. If you're numb, it's not gonna feel that way. It's gonna feel like a blur. Yeah. But if your life even yesterday feels like it was chockful, so chalkful and packed full of experiences that you can't help but feel like it was a week ago. You're living life right, dude. Can't always be that way. It's also don't like set the bar too high all the time, or you'll see you'll create a mental health disaster that way. But yeah, just a quote for you. Yeah. Yeah, I resonate with that a lot. last quote I have you said hiking is becoming a job.

And I like this job. Yeah. You know what trailer wrote that on? not off the top of my head. No, that's fine. No, no. You know, yeah, it's just the job that humans are meant to work if there ever was one, just to walk. Yeah. You know, your body's meant to move, you know, and you're meant to commune with humans and nature. I like that. Yeah. Closer we can get to that, the better. Yeah. So question for those of anyone listening who is like us and continues to be on that railroad to keep the metaphor the same, what words of advice or encouragement would you have for those who may not feel like they can break out, may feel discouraged from entering an exploratory season of their life?

I I would recommend the concept of Kaizen to them. This is a Japanese concept of becoming 1% better every day. Mm. 1% better every day. Just do something. Something as small as possible. Like make it small. Don't make it this grand gesture or else you'll burn out because in such a state your bandwidth is extremely limited. I am all too familiar with this state. Mm-hmm. So if you can find it in yourself to make the slightest adjustment over time, if you're consistent with it, it's gonna grow into something bigger, bigger, bigger.

You know, yeah. I would say don't give up hope, please don't give up hope. The world needs the authentic you and it takes work to unearth it. Yeah. Consistent, hard, arduous path it is. What are some of the what are some, you know, practical steps people can take to unearth their authentic self?

Try Try your best to shift your mental state to that which is welcoming of new experiences. Mm-hmm. You know, try and think of something that maybe you used to do, but and quit for whatever reason. People have a million reasons for that. But find something that when you think about it, you can't help but smile a little bit. You know, maybe it's pottery, maybe it's rock climbing, maybe it's going to burns. I'd also recommend for each and every one of y'all to go to a burn. Just to be clear. yeah, small steps. Believe in yourself, love yourself. That comes first. You know, without self love you will never be able to love someone else. And I'm learning that just now. it's made a huge change in my life.

Of all the things you've done, what do you think is the most influential and impactful?

Wow. I need to ponder that for a second.

I would say accepting all parts of me and knowing that there are no bad parts. I have feminine parts, I have masculine parts. And I was trying for the longest time to fit into what I perceive to be the right masculine box. And I have several good masculine qualities. I do. But it's not the whole me. And I was rejecting those parts that I didn't feel fit into that box, but I'm done doing that. And that's part of being the authentic you.

Yeah. Just accepting yourself wholly 'cause I have a whole lot of good to give to the world, as do you. And only by accepting all those parts and loving the entire you can you show up the best, up the and be present with people like I am right now. Yeah. And I think I think that parallels so many things in life too that we s tend to label as bad or good and maybe they're not bad or good, maybe they're just it.

It could be bad and good parts of all those things. Exactly. And there's bad and good of it. Yes. Getting over black and white shifting from black and white thinking is such a good thing to bring up. because there's good and bad in everything. Nothing is black and white. But being on the railroad tracks makes you think it that it is that way. Yeah. And it's really hard to get out of that. that's a great thing to mention. Glad you brought that up. Yeah. Black and not black and white. Never black and white. what if what if you're struggling with one particular part of yourself that you you wanna love but you feel like you like y you struggle seeing it as a positive, what advice might you have for someone like myself?

Such a good question.

I would meditate on it 'cause the great tool that meditation is, if you sit with your thoughts for even fifteen minutes, you'll tend to punch through those superficial layers of thought and those ruts and railroad track thoughts and you will plunge into something much more substantial and meaningful. And you can start to see the good and ev even in those bad parts, you know, by sitting with it. because it brought you to where you are today and it built you In some way, your strengths. Mm-hmm. I guarantee it. No matter what the quality is, there's something good about it if you think about it hard enough. And if you can identify those good parts, you could learn to accept them over time. Because nobody's perfect. One percent Kaizen. One percent every day. Mm-hmm. Just do five minutes of meditation. Yeah. Start there. There's apps too. Yeah. Do you have any you'd recommend?

I used to use headspace, like I don't use anything right now. I just sit and pay attention to my breath in silence. But yeah, Headspace is pretty good. I use that for some time. There's gosh, I can't remember. There's another one I'm trying to remember, but I can't at the moment. Insight timer. Insight timer. Yes. There's a lot of good artists on there with a lot of cool soundscape stuff. Cool. So that's that's it's free too. Cool. Check it out. There's also I'll throw one out there, So Buddhist centers have free and or donation based meditations, and little talks where you can learn more about the practice. That's such a great tool. Yeah.

My roommate goes to some a few of those Buddhist centers too. He's gone and for meditation practices himself. It's actually a pretty good segue. So I'm coming up on a twelve day silent retreat, which is scary as shit. Have you done one before? No. Okay. I'm in that season of experimentation. When is it? I leave on July fifteenth and I come back on the twenty sixth. Cool. You should talk to Drew at the farm festival. He's the owner of the farm. he's done three or four and he volunteers at the one down over by like Castle Rock area. Yeah. Yeah. He's big into that stuff.

Heard. I can't wait to meet Like I can't wait to meet the free farm crew. Yeah. I'm so excited. Yeah, they're cool people. Cannot wait. You mentioned one thing that I forgot to touch on was you had a religious conversation and you said it was or you were more or less observing a religious conversation and you said it was the most civil religious debate you've ever experienced. Are you religious, spiritual? I would say more spiritual. I don't I don't believe in religion and there being one overarching being that rules over all of us. Mm-hmm. And that's just not my flavor. I believe that God is in each and every one of us instead. I think that's a much more equinous equanimous way of looking at things. and when we can relate on a common level, that's when human interaction can be genuine. Yes. And you start to build community that way. I feel like you give your power away if you put it up to one powerful being.

But at the same time I can respect that it works for some people and I don't wanna what's the phrase? Yuck their yum. Yuck their y Yeah, yeah. That's exactly what I was looking for. Thank you. You were definitely looking for something much more deep than that. But we're going with it. Only yuck their yum. Yeah, so not a not a Breatharian. No God. I eat steak. I like a good ribeye and I know what a cook. Yeah. I I didn't know what that was, and when I read that in your journal, I was like, What the hell is this? Did I say I'm not a Breatharian? No, you met a Breatharian.

And you said you had your first experience meeting a Bretharian. I didn't even know that was. I think there's another term for it too. But yeah. Anyway, one thing you brought up that I liked was you said performance is a quote direct indicator of inner stress. Yes. Through the fire spinning and karaoke and just singing. Yeah. my gosh. Such a good thing to touch on. So I sing in the car a lot just because I can't sit still. I need to be doing something with my body. and so I like to sing along. And I notice the dynamic range that I have is directly correlated to how like inhibited I feel and how stressed out I am. So I can sing more freely.

And hit those higher and lower ranges if I'm feeling well. It's so noticeable. And it's the same with fire spinning. And I've unlocked a kind of slower, sexier kind of flow at this last burn that I really enjoy. I picked out some songs that I really like and that's what I'm gonna try and sell. We'll see what the clients want, if there are any. But yeah, I've found a good energy that I like. It's like either f slow, sexy or powerful. I guess those are the two things I like to hit. Dragonstaff can have both.

For sure. It's good. It's so good. I love the way people's faces light up. Yeah. It's so good. I mean, fire inherently is power. Yeah. It's so you wielding that and displaying it in a you know, beautiful and harnessing that power way is like that's that's a lot. It's a lot. Yeah. I love that. It's so hot. So hot. Literally and figuratively. Yeah. Actually, I didn't it's funny, I only thought of it figuratively the way you said that. whoops I love a good snort. That's wonderful. So one one thing I want to end on that you know ultimately the kind of the goal of this show is to help people like us, you know, just continue navigating changes and understand that, you know.

What we've been taught, what society has encouraged us to do, may not be what feels right for us. And I think the more you know, the more resources that are out there to support a different way of living, a different way of making money, a different way of experiencing life, I think the better because everyone's journey is so unique and there's no one size fits all for anything in the world. It doesn't work that way. so I really appreciate You know, you taking the time to to share everything. And you know, I wanna support you. And so, in the show notes I'll share whatever it is that you wanna you wanna share. so what what the fire spinning, fire twirling, what do you call it? Fire Yeah, fire spinning. Fire spinning. No gee, fire spinning. fire spinning. your book. Yes. The Art of Discomfort. Art of Discomfort. what am I missing? Or generally, how else can I support?

If you can get the word out about those two, that mean the world to me. Cool. My So however I can help people and if money comes with it, great. Cool. Cool. I'll see I can do. One thing one thing I'll leave on this is you said about firefighting. I will continue down this path until I get a spot in the academy, in the fire academy, no matter how long it takes. And I love that conviction. I love that level of I don't care how much time it's gonna take. I do not care, you know, how what this looks like. I know that this is something I want. and that yeah, that's that's incredibly powerful. Thank you. That's part of the journey of being a man of my word. Yeah. There it is right there. Yeah. I don't care if I have to volunteer and find another job. If I had to go back to civil engineering and volunteer in a district somewhere, I'll do that. But it's gonna take shape in my life in some way, some form. Yeah. It's just a matter of when. Well This has been amazing. Jake, thank you so very much. You are a inspiration and a beautiful human being inside and out. I seriously feel so filled from this right now. Like I you know, should this become a job of mine, I just I can't I don't know. It's just it's crazy to me that I get to have these conversations, record them and share them with people because you know, I can only imagine that there's a A small fraction of what I feel right now is what people will feel listening and watching this later. Isn't that exciting? Yeah. And I'm just so tremendously grateful for you taking the time out of your day to spend some quality time in a little studio upstairs and shoot the shit and talk about life. Yes. Thank you so much for wording it so kindly and thoughtfully. I'm thankful for you setting up the space and holding the space in the container for me to do it in. Absolutely.

Like I said, I've never done a podcast before, but I feel like we crushed it. Yeah, we did. If we could do pretty well Fuck yeah. Authentic, the whole time. Hey I love that.

Thank you. yeah. That was a blast.