Finding Your Voice with Charlie Youngson

Anthony (01:40): Welcome to the Ambiguous Truth. I'm your host, Anthony Mistretta. And I am super excited to introduce you to a guest who is a friend of mine and a extremely talented musician. He's an indie folk musician based in Perth, Australia. And I've had the opportunity of seeing him perform two or three times. He has a remarkable quality where as soon as he strums his guitar, as soon as he sings a note, somehow there's a vacuum created in the venue and all energy is sucked up by Charlie and it's pretty magical. The place goes quiet and you feel like you are energetically connected to Charlie and his music. Really excited to sit down and have a conversation with Charlie, and introduce you all to him if you don't know him already. A phenomenal musician, a really genuine and kind human being, and an absolute honor to call him a friend of mine. Really excited to share a little bit his story and how he brings his creative ideas to life.

Anthony (02:48): Charlie Youngson, thank you so much for joining us today. It's my pleasure. Share a little bit about yourself and what you do.

Charlie (02:51): Thank you for having me. Absolutely. Well, hello everyone. My name is Charlie. I live in Perth, well, Fremantle, which is pretty much Perth, Western Australia. And I'm like an indie, I suppose you'd call it an indie folk musician. But I play like folk and blues music, a lot of like fingerstyle guitar. And I'm sort of trying to do the whole solo artist thing, and just having so much fun, like learning about the music industry and, yeah, slowly developing a small following around Perth, which will hopefully expand to the rest of Australia and Europe eventually with lots of hard work. So yeah, that is me.

Anthony (03:39): Don't forget the US, you know? Yeah, it's been amazing to just see everything you're putting out, which I think today is an important day because you — wait, no, technically was it yesterday for you? Or is it — okay, so it was yesterday for you, today for me, your newest single, Petrichor, came out. So I had the, yeah.

Charlie (03:41): Yeah, and the US, of course, of course, of course. The whole rest of the world. Yesterday and then like — no, yeah, yeah, true. It's actually a very, very big day today.

Anthony (04:09): It's a huge day, at least at the time of recording. Who knows when this will actually be out into the world. But I woke up this morning and it was on Spotify. So I listened to it bright and early to start the day, which could not have been more perfect timing for the podcast.

Charlie (04:17): Hell yeah, that's unreal. Amazing.

Anthony (04:24): So yeah, kudos to you. It's beautiful. I feel so, so fortunate that I got to hear that six months ago, live. Yeah.

Charlie (04:28): Thank you. Oh, yeah. Yeah, it's taken me a long time to record. I've been playing it for like over a year. But yeah, I reckon if you listen to the song, you'll understand it's a bit going on.

Anthony (04:47): Absolutely. And I'll put the link in the show notes too. And it was three, you said three years of writing.

Charlie (04:53): Yeah, yeah, because it's like, for those of you who haven't listened to it yet, it's this sort of big long acoustic guitar instrumental song. And yeah, I just remember like for years and years, when I play guitar, I come up with all these tiny little parts, but never really do anything with them. They'd all just be these individual little moments, which I had. Then, and so I probably did that for, you know, like two years. And then I slowly started to... connect them and weave them together and think about what kind of a story I wanted to tell and which of these little nuggets of writing I could choose from to paint this picture of Petrichor, which is the word for the smell of the earth after rain, which I just reckon is the most beautiful word ever, and when I heard that I was like, oh, I think this — this is where I want to take all of these little parts and bring them together. So yeah, to be honest, it's still changing. Like I'm still making little adjustments. I think the version that I released yesterday is, it's in its current form, but I'm not at all in the mindset of like, okay, well, this is it now, I'm never touching this — cause I think as I become a better player and probably write more interesting little parts, I'll just find ways to sneak them in.

Anthony (06:15): Yeah, an artist and a songwriter, you think about your music evolving in terms of new music, in terms of creating a new song and incorporating the new concepts into that new song. And I really can't think of any examples of a single piece that evolves. And you're describing that piece, Petrichor, as almost being you as an artist. How did you get that concept, and is that something that you've always known was there, or did it just kind of come?

Charlie (06:45): So there's a really big artist who you would probably know, Anthony, but some people in the US might not, called John Butler, who lives here in Freo and he has this incredible song called Ocean, which I think has really inspired a lot of Petrichor, which is again, like this big acoustic guitar instrumental. And I've seen him play it probably three times live and every time, it's just like drastically different. Like, and to the studio recording as well, it's like every time is this completely new song and new journey that he takes you on. And I think I love that idea and not that I'm trying to copy Ocean with Petrichor, but I think just for that one song of his, very fluid, which I guess is... makes sense, the name. I think it makes the song feel a lot more real, when the artist can change it and adapt it for certain audiences and, just evolve, have it evolve with them. I think it shows to the audience that they really did write it and they really do not know what they're doing. Not that I think I know what I'm doing, but I like the...

Anthony (07:38): Hmm.

Charlie (07:55): That idea. Whenever I see John Butler play some brand new thing that he's probably just improvising on stage, it's like—

Anthony (08:04): Yeah, I haven't had the opportunity to see him live yet — not to go on too far of a tangent, but have you run into him in Frio yet?

Charlie (08:03): Mind-blowing. No, no, haven't. If I do — I played the same festival as him last year, and I so, so wanted to go up and say something, but I was too scared. I just don't know what I'd say.

Anthony (08:13): Okay. Charlie, there'll be a time when you play at the same place as him and he sees you and goes up to you.

Charlie (08:33): Fingers crossed. That would be... that would be nuts.

Anthony (08:34): I'm not kidding that will happen, and you're gonna think back to this day, you're gonna text me and be like, "dude, you're never gonna believe what happened" — it's gonna be that, yeah.

Charlie (08:42): I will, I will. If that ever happens, I'll text you for sure. Yeah, that would be pretty special.

Anthony (08:49): Be amazing. And it'll happen. You kind of joke that you don't know what you're doing. I think no one does. But one of the things that you do so exceptionally well, and it was so clear the first time I heard you play, was really translating your emotion into song. And not only in terms of the melodies and the lyrics, but you—

Charlie (08:57): Yeah. Thanks.

Anthony (09:12): Given that I saw you at a live performance, within seconds you captivated the audience and really everyone just understood you as a human being, and that really shone through. So I'm kind of curious, that level of connection to the music has to stem from an emotional connection to the world. And do you feel like, moving through life, being so deeply connected — while that enables beautiful music to be created — do you ever feel like it's a burden?

Charlie (09:45): That is a brilliant question. I think, whilst I am probably like quite a — I suppose you could say a connected person — I think I often feel a lot, just in general, as I think most people do, like whether I'm happy or sad. I think a lot of my creative friends actually all experience that, like, extreme — maybe not more extreme, but we feel a lot, it's a roller coaster, all the time. But I think what I tend to find is that by playing songs and being really connected to the song and showing my emotions through the song, it doesn't so much bring all those back in like a negative or overwhelming way, but by writing that song and playing that song and sort of reliving it — but through the music and through something that you love, kind of ends up reframing whatever — like whether it be happy or sad emotions you've got — and turns them into something that's just become something you enjoy. And it just allows you to process — I mean, this is so corny, but recently I had a breakup, and literally was feeling so bummed, wrote a song about it. And it's one of those songs that just spills out onto the page — like you don't even have to try, it just pours out of you. And now I play that song live, and the first few times I played it, I was like, it really got me — I was like, oh, this is tough, I don't love getting through this. But now that I've played it in front of people and shared it with people and feel comfortable putting that emotion on stage and showing it through this song — it suddenly has become like an amazing healing process. And I love playing it live. It's like one of my favorite songs of the set, because suddenly I can talk about and share this story of this thing that upset me a while ago. But this thing — I've taken something that really upset me, and now people love the song. And I can see people's reaction to that song, and they're like, this is great, I love it, I want to hear it more. And it's sort of reframed the whole experience as, like, just something that was really sad to something that was sad, but I now have the ability to share with others and resonate with others about. And this is just one example, but so many songs have just massively allowed me to reframe my emotions and process things, I suppose, as opposed to just letting it overwhelm me whenever I play up on stage.

Anthony (12:21): You're moving through it through music, and in playing it, you're getting to reinforce the shift of something sad into something beautiful.

Charlie (12:35): Exactly. And it sort of makes the whole experience feel a bit more worth it.

Anthony (12:38): Like you're able to be more grateful for that experience, because amidst the sorrow and pain, you're able to see something so beautiful come out the other side.

Charlie (12:49): A hundred percent. Yeah, yeah, for sure. And it's sort of — so much of it, as well, with just all my music, I think, is I'm not often like, "oh my god, this song is amazing, I love it so much, blah blah" — but what I really love, and when I feel like I'm doing something right, is when I get to play it live and I can see an audience's reaction. And when they clearly resonate with it, then it's like, okay, this is great, this makes me feel good, and I think I've got something — a cool song here.

Anthony (13:21): That validation helps, especially when you're going through something difficult and seeing others revel in the beauty is powerful. I see a lot of artists — their highs are extraordinarily high, but their lows are really low. Not all artists experience the same level of sorrow as others, and some people handle it differently, but I think it's a fair generalization that, to be an artist, you also have this sort of connection with the world on a deeper level, and therefore you're going to feel extremer edges of those sort of emotions. So I'm curious — if you have any practices where you feel like you are able to connect more deeply with the world and with others and things around you, or is it something that just happened sort of organically?

Charlie (14:11): Yeah, for sure. I think I really have one practice, I suppose, which has helped me — anytime that I'm feeling sort of like burnt out or tired, or experiencing those high highs and then low lows, and it's like, I just need to equalize a bit. And that's just going down south, or getting out of the city, for me. I think it's really different for everyone. There's this tiny little town about five hours south of Perth called Walpole, which maybe you visited when you were over here.

Anthony (14:42): Where is it? It doesn't ring a bell. There's a chance I drove through it. What's it nearby?

Charlie (14:46): It's tiny — near-ish to Denmark. It's like maybe 40 minutes away from Denmark. Yeah. And so for me, my family's gone on holiday there every year since I was a kid, and it's just so, so beautiful. And, even a couple of months ago, I recently moved up to Freo, which is amazing, but it was pretty overwhelming, you know, new place—

Anthony (14:53): Okay.

Charlie (15:10): And I was just — I remember starting to feel like, okay, this is a lot. And, literally, one week down in Walpole, and it was just amazing. My family has a farm down in Bridgetown, which is a different small town, like three hours south of Perth, and just going down there has the same effect. It just really — I think it's so important for me to get out into nature and out of the city, and find a bit of that quiet — but you don't really realize, there's so much noise in the city, 'cause you kind of get used to it. But then you go down there and you're like, this is what it's supposed to sound like. So, yeah, I would say for me, getting out and taking time away from the grind of, "I've always got to be playing shows every single weekend, and during the week I've got to be writing and working and doing all this stuff" — and it's actually okay to take a break for a week and go down south and take the guitar, but you don't have to play it if you don't want to. And just, that's what I would say is, for me, the thing that keeps me mentally... calm.

Anthony (16:29): Yeah. Yeah. And I love the recognition that it's okay if you take some time off. It's okay to give yourself that space and just recalibrate. I think I need to hear that. And I'm sure a lot of people need to hear that too.

Charlie (16:44): Yeah, that's the thing — I think that's not exclusive by any means to the music industry. I think the music industry is tricky because you have to run, like, on social media, because you have to, to do it. And so it's easy to fall into the trap of feeling pretty guilty, because you see all these other musicians who are at a similar level as you, and as soon as you stop, it's like you just see all their posts of all these amazing things that they're doing. And it's so difficult to just be stoked for them, and not beat yourself up about it and be like, 'shit, why am I not doing that?' I think it's the same in every industry though — no matter what job you're in, it's so hard to break out of the mindset of, 'I've got to always be hustling, because someone is one step behind me at all times.' I'm trying to catch up, and there's someone right ahead of me that I'm trying to get to. So, I don't know, it's pretty tricky. But I think there is — I've never taken a break and gone down south for a week and regretted it.

Anthony (17:48): You get caught up in thinking that you're racing against that other artist, you know, but in reality, you're each running a different race. Like, you're not racing against them — their starting point and finish line are completely different. And so it's not fair to compare—

Charlie (17:58): Absolutely. Completely different.

Anthony (18:06): —or even try to track your pace with them, when perhaps you're running up a steep mountain and they're running downhill. So it might look like they're running faster, and perhaps they are, but it's because you're in different places, you're on different tracks. And that is totally translatable to, I think, every industry, every profession.

Charlie (18:28): Absolutely. Mm, wise words. Yeah. It's a tough lesson to learn, but it can be quite freeing. I think — when I have moments where I'm, like, actually looking through Instagram, it actually doesn't matter — I'm doing my thing, they're doing theirs, it's all good, so chill. And it's pretty nice to have those occasional moments. Hey.

Anthony (18:53): I feel like I'm right there with you. It's like — haven't learned it yet, but I know I'm learning it. Like, I catch myself in these moments, like, 'okay, I shouldn't — why am I thinking about racing against them? Why am I thinking about where they are?' Like, we're on different timelines — who cares? But it is easier, you know, to see someone's highlight reel and think, like, 'is my highlight reel as good?' Maybe, maybe not, but you don't see any of the other stuff, yeah. So, only a couple months ago you moved from Bridgetown?

Charlie (19:25): Yeah, Bridgetown. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Anthony (19:26): Bridgetown, sorry. So you weren't living in Perth? I thought when I met you, you were in Perth.

Charlie (19:33): Well, I was, somewhat — I was living in uni accommodation, but that's only a temporary situation, just for during the uni period. So I guess — it sort of was in Perth, but it didn't really feel like my home, because it was, like, this tiny — it was just a bedroom that I was only in for like nine months, I think.

Anthony (19:38): Got it. Gotcha. Now that this is your home right now — this is your in-home studio, beautiful, beautiful. And so now that you're there — you said, past tense, that your uni accommodation didn't feel like home, but this does — what's changed? How has your perception of home really evolved?

Charlie (20:02): Yes, I am. Welcome. Yep. Yep. I love it. Well, this is actually super interesting to me. I've been going to boarding school since I was year seven, so that's like age 12. So at boarding school it's the exact same thing — it's like you have a room for three, maybe six months, and then you're changing. And then I took a gap year, but I was kind of traveling around and constantly, like, I was living at home in Bridgetown, but only really spent about three months of the year there. And then, last year, was at this uni accommodation, which just felt like boarding school, kind of — it was great, but same thing, it's just this very temporary room. And now that I've moved into this house here in Freo, I think for the first like three months, I loved it, but I didn't feel — I think my brain was just like, but this is not going to last, at the end of the year you'll have to move out. And so I was kind of scared about really making it nice, because I was like — I think just a little part of my brain was doing that. Just in the last, I reckon, month, I've suddenly been like, actually, there is no move-out date, I'm here, this is my home, and I can stay here for ages — which just made me reflect on all those past years, and 'cause I've never really thought about it, but I've never slept in the same room for longer than maybe six months at a time, at least since I was like 12. So it's pretty special actually to finally be in a place where it's like, oh, this is my own, I can stay here and make it really nice and make it my own. I think it's been a really comforting little realization from the last month, which has been great. I'm really excited about it.

Anthony (22:12): You're pretty close with your family, right? Now you're in the big city, it sounds like you're still able to see family a good bit — are they still a pretty integral part of your life?

Charlie (22:30): For sure. Yeah, yeah, they are. Mom and dad still live down in Bridgetown, but dad comes up for work a lot and mom comes up just to visit my sister and I. And, lucky enough to see them heaps, which is so good, because it sucks being away from them. But again, I feel like I'm pretty used to it now, going to boarding school and stuff — I think it's not all bad. I think it really makes me just super grateful for when I do get to see them, when they come up to Perth or I go down to Bridgetown, it just becomes a real treat, which is great.

Anthony (23:10): Who's your biggest fan?

Charlie (23:13): Mum for sure, 100%. Close — dad and mum, reckon are equal actually. Yeah, they're so sweet. Just endless support, which I feel so, so grateful for, because I think not all people are as fortunate to have parents who are so unwaveringly supportive. Is that a word? Unwaveringly? Yeah, sweet. Yeah, they're just amazing.

Anthony (23:38): Believe it is. Yeah, we're gonna go with it.

Charlie (23:44): And they really — they always pushed me to do music lessons when I was young, and I wasn't like, "my god, this is amazing" — back in the day, they were always like, no, it's a good thing, keep going. And they actually bought me — I'll show it, because it's right behind me, it's kind of fun — this is my little guitar called Winnie, which my mom and dad bought me for Christmas, I think, when I was like nine or 10 years old. So I've had it for 10 years, and it's got all these scars and bruises, it's absolutely cooked. But I love it so much, and I use it for every single one of my gigs. And I truly reckon that — 'cause this is a way too nice of a guitar for a nine or ten year old, it's stupid — it was so great because they put faith in me that this was something I was going to do and want to do. I don't think they had any expectation that I would try and do it semi-professionally, but they knew that this was something I was going to love and value and cherish, and boy do I love and value and cherish this guitar — it is so special to me. I think just the fact that it came from mom and dad as well just makes it all the more important. Mom and dad, incredibly supportive, incredibly wonderful parents, and they bought me this guitar, which is my favourite thing that I have in the entire world.

Anthony (25:21): They obviously influenced your getting into music. Was it that encouraged you to make it more than a hobby, but really go after this passion of yours?

Charlie (25:31): I reckon I had a few really, really inspiring music teachers at school, which I think makes a massive difference.

Anthony (25:40): When you were at boarding school, was that for music? Was there a concentration in it?

Charlie (25:46): It wasn't so much that the school I was at had a music program, but it was that the schools down south had no music program — I wanted to go to a school in Bridgetown or nearby, but there's very limited music opportunities there. Whereas the school I went to did have a music program, which was actually great — super fun, though not very contemporary. So I was playing guitar in the jazz band, and I played percussion in the orchestra, which was so rogue, but still great, super fun. But yeah, through high school and primary school I had two incredibly inspiring teachers, which I think makes a massive difference. And then I think it was just starting to play live — that was really where I caught the bug a little bit. One time there's this tiny little restaurant in Bridgetown — this was the first gig I ever did, where they do this night where people pay a ticket and get unlimited soup, and then they have people playing songs. And I was 16 or 15, and they asked me to come play. I remember it being so special and so much fun. And I think from that moment on, I was just like, oh, I want to play more shows. And it wasn't like I wanted to make a living from it, or do it for any sort of financial gain at all — which is still not really the goal, I mean, it is a goal, but not really the passion behind it. At the end of year 12, and then in my gap year, I was just like, shows, shows, shows, can I play? And some of them were so bad, so terrible — like playing in 35 degree heat outside for three hours — and I was like, this is so grim, but it was fun and good experience. So yeah, I think just starting to play live, I started to write my own music as well, and it just snowballed into this, where we are now.

Anthony (27:57): Imagine you had some doubts along the way. Were you ever close to throwing in the towel and quitting?

Charlie (28:05): It was never something that I really decided, "oh, I'm going to do this." I think it more was always from a thing of, all my friends are going off to uni and I don't really know what I want to do. So, at the end of high school, I was like, I'm just going to do this because I like it, and it's fun, whilst I work out what I'm going to do really. I think that was my mindset. And so, if I ever did have any doubts, I was kind of okay with that, because for a while I was like, well, this is something that I love and it's fun, and I'll always have it, but it's not necessarily what I have to end up doing — which I think I still kind of feel like now, not to take away from any of the passion that I have.

Anthony (28:25): Yeah.

Charlie (28:49): But I think there are so many avenues that I can go down inside the music industry that I don't often feel like — that's a lie, I do often have a lot of doubts and be like, 'shit, this is pretty hectic, this is pretty full on trying to make this work.' But I don't know, I just think life is quite long, as opposed to the very well-known saying — I think I have a lot of time to do something else, something more serious that'll potentially get me consistent money or whatever, all the important things that you need. And I just think I love what I'm doing, and even if at times it's hard, I think the experience that I'm gaining — 'cause you're effectively growing a small business — I think I feel so lucky to be in a position where I'm this young and have found something that I'm super passionate about, which I can use to either have an amazing career and live a super fun life, or just use as an amazing learning experience for growing a business and networking and—

Anthony (30:02): Hehehehe.

Charlie (30:10): —doing all those things, marketing, like it's just great. Every part of the process, whether it be fun or hard or easy or whatever, it doesn't often make me lose my passion for it, because I'm like, this is hard, but it's good that I'm doing this.

Anthony (30:29): Yeah. I mean, you really touched on, frankly, the core of why I wanted to talk to you, because you're someone who identified that passion so early, in the grand scheme of things, so early in life. And I think, I'm frankly still trying to figure that out for myself. And I think so many people are trying to figure out, even through their 50s, 60s, what is the thing that really drives me? And I think you touched on a great insight — that life is long. Like, if you see a goal or an objective down the road that you think is gonna take you, you know, 30, 40 years to get there, and you're just kind of drudging through, and you look back and you're like, 'shit, I've been doing this for 15 years,' — man, life is short. That's a very different perspective than, wow, I have the opportunity to go head first into a passion, into something that I absolutely adore. And the consolation prize is a literally life-changing experience, where you got to do your hobby for however many years that is. Like, that's a fucking amazing consolation prize. There's no sugarcoating that.

Charlie (31:59): That's the thing, hey — I can't help but feel like ridiculously psyched and grateful about everything that I'm doing, because it can be disheartening at times. It's like, I could be studying engineering, which was what I was going to do — I was going to go to uni and study engineering. And, no hate to any engineers or anyone studying engineering, but it's just not of interest to me personally. And so, it's probably a lot of engineers would be like, damn, so glad I'm studying engineering, could be sitting at home playing guitar all day, what a waste of time. But maybe not, I don't know. But anyway, no, I reckon that's the thing — I just feel stoked that I get to spend all day piss farting about—

Anthony (32:36): Do you actually believe that? Do you actually think that? Yeah.

Charlie (32:51): —playing guitar, playing shows and writing music. It's hard not to just feel super grateful and excited about building this little business and learning all of the things that come with that. And whether that means that I do music into the future, or if I take these skills and package them up and use them for another endeavor later down the line, I don't know — I'm just excited by the idea that there are endless possibilities.

Anthony (33:24): And you mentioned some of the challenges — let's talk about what's been the biggest challenge that you've faced, specifically navigating that music career, and how has that shaped you?

Charlie (33:37): For me, it's been recently releasing music — I find it really difficult, because when you play your songs live, you can always change them and evolve them, like how we were talking about Petrichor earlier, it's always evolving. And I get quite nervous and scared with the idea of releasing a song, because it's like, okay, well, this is it in its final form — that's how I felt for a long time. And I just had this kind of perfectionist thing of, "well, I don't think it's as good as it can be, I don't know what needs to change, but I feel like it could be better." I'm currently just sitting on all of these songs, and I don't like — I'm like, oh, these aren't good enough, there's no point in putting them out. Yeah, I think that's been a real struggle. But with Petrichor — and this is kind of why I wanted to release it first, 'cause this is the first song I've released in probably two years — I think it was important for me to release this one, because it's really setting up the new direction and identity that I want to take with my future releases, and just music in general. So, yeah, I think it was important that I just got this one out there. And now I feel ready to start tackling some of the other songs, like songs with lyrics, and realizing that you've just got to put it out there, and whether people like it or not, it's kind of not as important — just not getting too attached to a song, and being able to let it go, and also knowing that if you suddenly want to change it and completely redo it, you can just whip it off Spotify and put a new version up. It's not that deep, is what I've been telling myself.

Anthony (35:16): I think that's something that everyone faces, especially when they're creating some form of art — the fear of "I don't think it's ready." Even in the startup world, one of the biggest challenges is that people have these ideas, and then they want to bring them to life, and then they keep thinking, "I need to build another feature, I need to add something new." You can't let — what is it — perfection be the enemy of greatness, or something like that?

Charlie (35:41): Yeah, or of progress, I think. But I know the saying you're referring to. No, 100% agree. And, I have other music on Spotify, but it was all recorded in my bedroom back in Bridgetown when I was still in high school, like year 12. And oh my god, it's so bad, it's so terrible, it's like shitty pop.

Anthony (35:43): Yeah, progress. Botch that.

Charlie (36:08): But just, you know, for a 16 year old, it was kind of cooking, but — because people don't know I was 16 when they're listening to it on Spotify — it's like, ooh, this isn't too flash. And so I'm so, so tempted to just rip it off and start again, just start with Petrichor. But I haven't yet, 'cause I think a little part of me is still kind of like — but it...

Anthony (36:11): Yeah. So how can you say it's shitty?

Charlie (36:36): It is showing the journey and the progression, like the evolution of my sound from this bedroom pop to now this folky stuff. I don't know, it's a really tough question — like, in terms of what to do with that old stuff that I don't like anymore.

Anthony (36:58): I feel like that translates to so many other parts of your life — just as you're growing as a person, you reflect back at certain actions, certain ways that you treated people, certain decisions that you made, and there's like almost this embarrassment behind it. But at the same time, if you didn't have those things, if those things weren't a part of your journey, you wouldn't be where you are today — so they're just as important as the highlights, just as important as the trophies, because they shaped you and who you are. But you realize that the takeaway from those wasn't that you want to lean into that direction, but that you want to move away from that. And that sort of equally is valuable, because either way you're getting some sort of signal into where you should direct your energy.

Charlie (37:42): For sure, 100% agree. Yeah, very well said.

Anthony (37:46): What are some other things that were deeply difficult, but music helped you move through? We can hear it through the music, but we may not know the specific thing you're referencing — what are some of those?

Charlie (37:58): I reckon the whole living-away-from-home thing was a big theme in my music for a long time. I wrote a lot of songs back in boarding school — it was kind of how I started writing music actually, because I would feel homesick, and so I'd go down to the music room and write down my emotions. And the lyrics were so basic — the first line of the first song that I wrote was called Take Me Home. Yeah, pretty direct, not really masking too much. And I don't really play it anymore, because I think the lyrics are too boring — it's just like, take me home, and that's a lot of the song. But yeah, that was a big theme for me for a while — just missing home.

Anthony (38:27): Pretty direct.

Charlie (38:50): Missing mom and dad. And then, after that, I took a gap year, which I highly recommend, but it was very easy during my gap year to feel kind of a little lost as to what I was doing, because a lot of my friends just went straight to uni. So I was kind of, whilst I was in Bridgetown working and then going traveling, kind of like, what am I doing, I don't know what I'm doing. So that was a bit of a theme for a while. And then, whilst I was traveling, I was in a long-distance relationship for a while — didn't see each other for like five and a half months, which I don't regret because I learned a lot, and she was lovely, but it didn't work out after I got back. So that was a massive experience as well, which I think shaped a lot of how I felt and wrote about — and I actually couldn't write about it for ages, because I was too bummed, it really got to me, and I could hardly write anything or even try to think about it all that much. But in hindsight, now getting through it and processing it all, I'm like, well, it's a shame it didn't work out, but it was still another really good experience that has shaped the music. I think artists often tend to write about the sadder things that happen in your life. So I think, yeah, all of these things have had a pretty big impact on shaping a lot of the music that I've written over the years.

Anthony (40:16): Do you feel like you write about any of the positive things that happen?

Charlie (40:20): 100%. Yeah, I feel like all love songs are positive, generally. I definitely have a few songs which are just your basic, "how cool is this person" type of song. I have a song about Walpole as well, which is just — I have nothing but great things to say about Walpole. I definitely have a blend of both — I think I'd be too sad if all I played was sad songs. Petrichor, I think, is also a great example of a song that's just full of joy and excitement and wonder — it hasn't got any darkness for me.

Anthony (41:00): No, and you can feel that energy in the song. When you hear it, it's like, oh, this is energizing, this is rejuvenating, moving me in a direction of progress. And that isn't to say that reflection and listening to sad songs is regression by any means, but there's a difference between encouragement and excitement to move forward versus a pat on the shoulder that's like, 'it's okay.' Those are two very different things.

Charlie (41:23): Yeah. Sometimes it's okay to listen to sad music when you're sad and lean into that, and listen to happy music when you're happy and lean into that. And then sometimes you've got to do the opposite, to try and pull yourself out — I don't know why you'd want to pull yourself out of happiness, but maybe sometimes I need to listen to some sad music to ground myself. But yeah, like Petrichor especially, it has that effect when I'm playing it, even if I'm just playing at home, like if I'm—

Anthony (41:39): My life's too good, I can't be like this forever.

Charlie (41:52): —feeling kind of flat. Often I would say, yeah, sad, but especially if I'm just feeling unenergized, uninspired, just flat — I just get on Winnie and start strumming, and it's really just immediately got this effect of lifting me out of that, which is so, so good. And I think it's probably the same with a lot of people when they find their artistic passion, or a sport, or whatever — it's just gonna have such a powerful effect, bringing you joy and affecting your emotions in such a positive way.

Anthony (42:29): Do you feel like you get that same level of emotional connection with other art forms?

Charlie (42:35): For me, not so much, I would say, but I think it's just because it gets more and more as you practice and get better and more excited by it, like with any art form. And I've invested a lot of time into music, so that's what does it for me. But I love taking photos with my camera — I'm not very good at it, but it still gets me excited, and I love running around at gigs trying to take photos of my friends, all that sort of stuff. Mountain biking too, a bit of a rogue one — I just love mountain biking, and that gives me the same feeling. It's just — that excitement, and just feeling ready to seize the day.

Anthony (43:18): That's an interesting one, because I'm a huge fan of adrenaline-inducing activities — snowboarding, motorcycles, anything that just gets the blood boiling, let's go, it gets you amped. But I feel like that's different than music, though it can sort of serve the same overarching purpose of driving you towards a direction of more positivity, or being more aligned with your values and what you want to achieve from the world, or just experience — maybe not even achieve. Who do you feel has made an influence, not just on the nature of your work, but in the direction of your life more generally?

Charlie (43:59): In terms of the nature of my work, it really is — there were Australian folk artists like John Butler and Kim Churchill and Steph Strings and Ziggy Alberts and whatnot — they're amazing, and I think they've inspired me massively from a musical perspective, but also massively from just a general lifestyle perspective. Watching them growing up, going to all the festivals down south, watching them play, watching them engage with the crowd, then following along on their socials — so many artists who just do incredible things, release incredible music, and go on tour and get paid to go to Europe and the US and play shows — like, what? There's actually a joke, like there's no way that's real. Just growing up, especially down south, there are a couple of little festivals — there's a big blues festival every year in Bridgetown, and another one just down the road. So growing up, going to all those festivals, had a massive influence on shaping being like, this is really cool, I love this. And I think seeing those other artists and meeting them really had a massive influence on how I wanted to live my life.

Anthony (45:16): There's not much of a segue here, but I want to touch on this, which is the nerves before a live show — pre-show ritual, is there something there? How do you feel before a show? How do you get over the nerves? What is that like?

Charlie (45:33): For sure. I think I still definitely get very nervous sometimes, but I think over the years, as I've practiced and become more confident in myself and my own show, that sort of anxious nervousness that I'm sure most people are familiar with — like getting up to do a speech in high school, and it's terrible, so unpleasant — that anxious nervousness has shifted to excited nervousness. I'm still nervous, because there are heaps of people and I've got to play in front of them, especially playing solo, where the entire show, all the focus, is on you, which is amazing but also can be a lot. But as I've become more confident in my show, and my "product," I suppose you'd call it, I know people tend to enjoy it, which is amazing to me, I love that. And over hundreds of shows and heaps of practice, it's shifted to more excitement — let's get out there, let's do it — but mixed with nervousness. To answer your question, pre-show ritual, it's not a lot — just make sure that I'm warm, the fingers are warm, the voice is warm, and I'll jump up and down a little, roll the shoulders, deep breaths, all that sort of stuff. And that's really it — I just try to be as present as possible and get excited to perform.

Anthony (47:10): I feel like that's all you really can do. You mentioned growing into confidence — and I heard something where confidence isn't something you can have with something you've never done before, you can never be confident in something you've never experienced. But in doing and repeating that thing, you're able to eventually develop that confidence. And it sounds like that's kind of your experience with performing — you weren't confident to begin with, you had all this anxious nervousness about you, but as you started to practice and do it more and more, you really started to build that confidence. Do you feel like confidence has been something that's come relatively easily throughout your life, or is that something you've really had to work at?

Charlie (47:58): I think it's something I a hundred percent have to work at. In high school, especially the move from primary to high school, confidence definitely took a knock — 'cause I was this new kid at this new school, moved away from home. But from a young age, back in primary school days, I would do all the pantomimes and plays in town, and then at high school did the school play — was a big theatre kid, did the school play every single year. And I think, although I wasn't playing music for a lot of those years, through that experience and starting pretty early on, I gained so much confidence through that. And it was a lot easier of a starting point, I think, compared to music, because I'm just reading lines and playing a character that someone else has written, and I'm up there with all these other people on stage. Whereas music — it's you, I'm not trying to pretend to be someone else, or doing something that someone else has written — so I think it was just a perfect starting point to build a sense of being comfortable up on stage, being like, okay, this is cool, I like this. And then, as that slowly transitioned towards my own work, there's a whole other layer of nervousness that comes on top of that, because it's sort of like, if people don't like the play, well, it could be the actors, of course, but it could also just be a bad play — whereas if people don't like your song, and you've written it and performed it, well, you're really the only one at fault. So yeah, just heaps of practice, starting off in that theater environment and then moving to music — and now I've done over a hundred shows in the last year, just keep working it, it's a skill just like anything else.

Anthony (49:50): You said you wrote the song, you're performing it and no one's really liking it — art is so subjective, but sometimes you put something into the world and it's not received the way that you wanted it to be. How do you think that affects your perception of that? Because I feel like, in a perfect world, if you're unaffected by anyone else's thoughts, you'd see a song that doesn't have a whole lot of listens but be like, I stand behind this music, this is amazing, I love this piece. But in practice, that's a lot harder. So how do you find that balance of recognizing this is subjective, but also recognizing, all right, this isn't really being accepted the way that I wanted it to — and how do you move forward from that?

Charlie (50:47): I just try and treat everything like a learning experience, to an extent. And if something doesn't go how I want it, or a song isn't received as well as I hoped, I try to reflect on it — not in a super self-critical way, but just be like, okay, how could I improve this to make it better, make it be received better. 'Cause it's super easy — I'd get a bit of negative feedback about a song and be like, oh shit, just throw it away, never play it again. And it's like, all that hard work you put into this thing, and then you get one bit of negative comment and you're like, oh well, it's a write-off, I guess. I think it takes a lot of practice, but I just try to be like, okay, I've already invested all this time — if I just tweak it a little bit, maybe I can try again and see how it goes.

Anthony (51:40): That's a great perspective, because you're not saying, "they didn't like the music, this particular song sucks" — it's more like, okay, clearly there's a disconnect between my vision for this piece and the audience, and it's not that the piece is atrocious, it's that there's something missing, and there's an opportunity there. That's very optimistic and positive — I love hearing that.

Charlie (52:00): Yeah, for sure. It's super easy to just give up on it. But I think I always try to give it a couple of goes, and then eventually I'm like, maybe this one's just not it.

Anthony (52:15): Totally. With that said, what's been the biggest flop of your life? There's excitement for it, you put in effort to have it go the way you want, and then all of a sudden, shit, that did not go well, no one liked that.

Charlie (52:31): To be honest, I don't know — I'm yet to experience a massive flop. Any moment where I've been like, whoa, that was really not how I thought it was going to go at all — which I think is pretty lucky. So I'm worried that it's coming.

Anthony (52:51): You look at flops as a learning experience, clearly, based on this whole conversation, so I think maybe things that others might consider a flop, you're not. But I still want to know — what's been the biggest obstacle or thing that you've had to overcome that has shaped you into the Charlie Youngson you are today?

Charlie (53:18): Last year I went to the performing arts academy here in Perth. We had this class every Monday morning where the head of our course — we would sit down and play one of our songs, because we did this big showcase thing at the end of the year, and you sort of have to present your songs to him, and if he likes them — well, generally everyone gets a song, but it has to be good to get into the show. And I remember with Petrichor I was like, he's gonna love this, this is going to be so good — you know, I spent so long writing it, I poured so much energy into it, I thought it was really cool. And I remember playing it for him in front of my entire cohort as well — all these other incredibly talented musicians who I look up to were all there. And I played it, and got absolutely grilled for it. Don't get me wrong, I absolutely love my course teacher, he's amazing, he does such a great job — but I remember being so gutted, because I had put so much effort into it, and thought this song was really great, and he was just like, it needs so much work. At the time I was like, fuck you, you don't know what you're talking about, this song's great — but holy shit, in hindsight, he was so right. And I remember going home and being so angry, because he was like, it's just not clean, it's messy. Going home and being really angry, and like, I'm going to show him — and I just practiced for hours and hours for a week straight, every spare second I was playing Petrichor. And a month later, when the show came up, it was truly night and day from what it was back then — the notes were tight, the rhythm was clean, it was just so much better.

Anthony (55:18): Has he heard the new version?

Charlie (55:20): Yeah, he has — well, I played it at the show. But he hasn't — I don't think he's heard the recording yet.

Anthony (55:24): That was in front of him, got it. When he heard the version he did hear, what was his feedback? Did he provide any, or did you talk to him?

Charlie (55:37): Yeah, he was like, that's so much better.

Anthony (55:40): Yeah, okay, amazing. The movie Miracle? Yeah, I'm not surprised — I feel like ice hockey isn't big in Australian culture. But the reason I bring it up is because there's a scene where the coach goes into the locker room and just throws a fit, tosses the table—

Charlie (55:44): No, no, I don't think so.

Anthony (56:04): —spills the Gatorade everywhere. And there's a guy who's injured, and he basically talks shit to the injured player — something like, a bruise on the legs is a hell of a lot easier to deal with than a bruise on your heart. And as he's walking out, Herb Brooks, the coach, turns to his assistant coach and goes, "nah, I've got him going." He did that just to piss them all off, so they'd get on the ice with that anger, that frustration. And it sounds to me like—

Charlie (56:23): Thank you. Yeah, yeah.

Anthony (56:30): —that professor obviously had a little more tact, I think — it's obviously a completely different environment, telling a single musician — but it sounds like there was a bit of tough love and harsh reality of, 'you're so much better than this, you can make it better, I know there's more there.' And then you went home with that fire, like, all right, I'm going to show him — and sure enough, that's what he wanted.

Charlie (56:54): Yeah, that's the thing. He played me like a fiddle. And the way he delivered his criticism wasn't in an uninspiring way — it got me, I was angry at him, but it got me revved up. And I truly wouldn't be close to as good a musician today if it wasn't for that exact experience — it made me rethink, and then I went back through my whole set.

Anthony (56:57): Yeah!

Charlie (57:22): And I was like, oh shit, there's a lot that can be tweaked and improved. Sometimes that tough love and revving up is actually exactly what you need to make progress. It's super easy to just fall into a comfortable state and be like, yeah, this is good enough — and that's how I felt about Petrichor, I knew it wasn't perfect, but I was like, good enough, people love it, people like it, it'd be great. But now it's just levels above, which is great — very grateful for that experience.

Anthony (57:57): Yeah, sometimes you need that catalyst to take you up a notch. You mentioned your search for perfection — how do you balance that tweaking and refining? When do you know it's reached a point where it's refined sufficiently, but you don't go down that rabbit hole so far that you never release?

Charlie (58:17): I don't know, I'm terrible at it, to be honest. I listened to Petrichor yesterday when it came out and picked out so many things that I don't like and would do differently — I was sitting on the bus on my way to work like, cooked, there's so much wrong. And it's like, two weeks ago I was like, this is great, upload it — and now it's just, it's so stupid. It's still something I'm working on, but I sat on the bus for ages and eventually was like, actually, there's nothing I can do, I've already released it, there's no point in being upset about it — I'm not going to cause myself any anguish, this is it, this is what it's going to be. It's something I'm still working on. I think, at some point, when I feel motivated to upload something and I'm like, I don't care, I'm just going to do it — it's so important to seize those moments, 'cause I spend so much time thinking it's already — so I think, yeah, it's good.

Anthony (59:27): Yeah, so kind of like — listen to that gut. When your gut is excited about it, when you feel deep down in your heart that you're like, this is it, I want this, that's when you know. And you can logic and reason your way into a hole about all the ways it needs improvement, but if your heart is saying, no, this is it, you kind of know, all right, this is it.

Charlie (59:37): Absolutely. Yeah, for sure, for sure. It's just like keeping your focus on that feeling, and not up in your head.

Anthony (59:59): Yeah. Do you feel like you have any experience with haters? With naysayers?

Charlie (1:00:06): I think I'm incredibly lucky that I've never experienced an actual hater before. I've never had any.

Anthony (1:00:13): Were you ever bullied?

Charlie (1:00:16): Yes, actually, I suppose — I was thinking in a musical context, haven't experienced that there. No, thankfully I've been lucky — I'm sure as you get bigger there are always going to be people who want to knock you down, but so far it's been smooth sailing. But yeah, in high school, definitely in the early years, I was this weird kid from Bridgetown who had hair down to his shoulders — not that having hair down to your shoulders is weird.

Anthony (1:00:21): I was asking in a musical way, but then you took it in a different way.

Charlie (1:00:47): Yours looks really cool, whereas mine was not styled well at all. But yeah, I didn't have the littest time in the first couple of years of high school.

Anthony (1:01:02): Not to throw salt in those wounds, but it just seems like a funny thing to make fun of, because now everyone in Australia has just the shittiest rat-tailed mullet out there.

Charlie (1:01:13): Yeah, well, I mean, look at this — it's absolutely filled. But it's apparently way cooler.

Anthony (1:01:20): It's like the Aussie way is to just make it as ugly as possible, and that looks good.

Charlie (1:01:28): Yeah, I know, it's so weird, doesn't make any sense at all. Typical Australian vibes.

Anthony (1:01:29): It's so weird. What's something you believe that others think is insane?

Charlie (1:01:35): Honestly, just the whole career trajectory that I'm on in general — a lot of my mates have gone straight to uni, and I think that's amazing, that's what I was going to do too. And I think there are definitely some people who see what I'm doing, which is just working, traveling, and playing songs, and think, that's wild. I'm lucky enough to be in a really fortunate position — I'm not in a rush to need to support my parents or my family, and I try to always remember and stay grateful for that, because some people don't have the option of going out on their own and traveling and pursuing that thing they love, because sometimes life calls, you have responsibilities you have to attend to. I'm incredibly fortunate and grateful for the fact that I get to do this and have this experience. And I think a lot of people look at what I'm doing and ask themselves, what's going on here, this is crazy — and to be honest, I don't know what's going on either, I think it's a bit insane. I'm just aimlessly, at this stage, firing shots in the dark, hoping something will stick. And so, just the whole concept, like I was saying before — get paid to travel around and play songs to people, like, what? That is insane, that doesn't make any sense. And if I think it's insane, then definitely others probably look at it and think that's hectic.

Anthony (1:03:22): 100%. That aligns really well with the whole theme of this podcast — chasing passions, something that so deeply aligns with your values, your interests, your skills, really pooling every part of yourself together to create a unique direction. I took a very traditional path, and it just never led to fulfillment — it felt like there was something out there. I looked at podcasts and thought, how is that a real thing, people are just talking, that's a job? And I'm certainly nowhere near there yet, but this is an effort to chase that. And I think that's a big reason why I wanted to have you on — you're going after something that in school they probably advised you wasn't safe, you didn't want to go this direction. Did you get a lot of people discouraging that step because it's not proven?

Charlie (1:04:23): Yeah, I think there wasn't a huge amount of discouragement, but there was a massive amount of encouragement towards uni. I did the whole thing where you get your ATAR score, which is your entrance into uni — maybe you have the SATs over there? Yeah, I did all that, did all the exams, and have never used it once. But again, the experience was really cool — doing all the study, learning all this physics and chemistry and whatever. But yeah, there was definitely a massive culture of, you work to get into uni, then you go to uni, and then you work at uni to get a job where you can work. But I love what you're doing with this — we were talking yesterday about what the podcast is and what it means to you, and how your passion is sharing people's stories behind their passion, which I just think is so inspiring, I absolutely love it. And I feel so honored that you asked me at all — it's nuts, I have a bit of imposter syndrome, it's so lovely and such a treat to get to come on and chat with you and just ramble away about all these random things.

Anthony (1:05:36): Well, it's such a pleasure for me. It's funny you have imposter syndrome, because we were talking before the show started about this very much jerry-rigged studio that I have — it's a big — it's literally a closet. It's a big closet, don't get me wrong, but it's a closet, just a spacious closet. Yeah, it's good.

Charlie (1:05:47): I think it's so cool, it's awesome. Super spacious, I love it. Yeah, the whole setup is unreal, it's so cool. And the fact that we can podcast across continents — like, what, that's just nuts, so fun.

Anthony (1:06:04): Yeah, well, next one we record, hopefully we'll be in Perth, because I'm itching to get back out there. I'll visit you in Freo, I will, I will.

Charlie (1:06:13): Yes, please come back, come back, come back. Yeah, well, dude, it'd be so great to have you back and give you a proper tour of the studio — in person, in person pod, how crazy would that be. You've got to give me a bit of time though, so I can have some more interesting things happen to talk about — I've used all my interesting anecdotes.

Anthony (1:06:23): Yes. Do you have two mics? Yeah, okay, yup. Well, before we leave, where can people find you? Where can people support you and find your music?

Charlie (1:06:48): Yeah, so Instagram is Charlie Youngson Music, and Spotify is Charlie Youngson. But Instagram, I feel, is the best spot to go check out what's been happening, the latest activities — so yeah, I'd say that's the way to go.

Anthony (1:07:07): Thank you so much, Charlie. It's been an absolute pleasure.

Charlie (1:07:10): Thank you for having me, Anthony. It's been such a treat talking.