Music, AI, and Creativity with Discognition

Welcome to the Ambiguous Truths. I'm your host, Anthony Mistretta. And today I'm bringing to you a Denver-based DJ producer, Chad, aka Discognition. So I've had the opportunity to see Discognition perform only once, but he blew me away. I do not know many DJs that have the ability to connect with their audience to the level that Discognition does. Chad was able to read the audience, pick up on our energy, adjust the discography and his mixing to us.

And it absolutely blew me away. The level of connection with his fans, or as he calls friends, you'll hear later on, is second tier to none, You can really tell that his objective as a producer and a DJ is connection. It shines through in his music he produces, and it shines through, I think, even more intensely

in his live performances. So I'd like to introduce you to Chad Vasquez, aka Discognition.

I gotta just say, Chad, it's so funny when I saw your Instagram, because Frankie told me to look at your Instagram. So I saw your profile and then I...

She told me later that your name, I don't know if it says Chad. Does it say Chad on your Instagram? It doesn't. No it doesn't, right. And then she's like, yeah, his name's Chad. I'm like, no, it's fucking not. Yeah, not that guy. Yeah. Vasquez. Yeah, okay. Yeah, I hate my name. It's an ongoing beef with me and my parents. didn't mean it that way. No, I did. Yeah, no it's not. Yeah, no, I agree with you. The black Mexican kid is named Chad. Okay, yeah. Look, that's not what I was...

I mean, I wasn't expecting anything because I saw who you were before I your name. Yeah. I was like, Chad, what the fuck? Well, my brother got the cool name. He's my older brother and his real God given name is Camaro. And I'm like, okay. And I'm Chad. So like, I don't know, depending on who you ask, they might be like, I'm glad my name is not Camaro, but I don't know. Dude, that's a cool name. Yeah, it's a fucking cool name. It's an objectively cool name. It is. Well, I got one for you. I, my dad wanted to name me Giacomo.

He's a big opera fan, Giacomo Puccini, and my mom put her foot down and was like, we're not naming him Giacomo, everyone's gonna call him Jockstrap. Well that's an excuse to punch someone. Nah, nah, I don't think that. But yeah, was like, damn, I could've been Giacomo? That's a fucking cool name. It is a cool name. It's like one of those things where like, yeah, once you get through high school, like, who cares? You know, if people made fun of you or whatever in elementary school, whatever, and then you become an adult and then like the people who matter, they're like, that's fucking sick name. Right.

Actually talking to Lojo, we had a similar thread come up, which was like the things that were once nerdy and dweeby and shitty are now just like, that's pretty fucking cool. Like, you play saxophone? You're in band? And now it's like, you play saxophones? Like where the fuck was this when I was in middle school marching band? No one gave a fuck about Anthony and now they're like, Dude, and that's actually a really awesome topic because like DJs being the modern.

rock stars right now is kind of hilarious to me. it's, yeah. The things like it used to be like, okay, the biggest rock star, they're all playing instruments, guitars, singers, drummers. Like those guys are obviously still doing that. But I personally can't tell you the last time I went to a show, I can actually, it was like two years ago, I went to see Louis Cole who's like,

phenomenal musician and like seeing him as an experience but then it's like today's day and age everyone in our generation is like going and seeing dj's which is like awesome for me but for other people who you know like people like my dad who's a musician he's like they're not real musicians they're not

really doing anything and I'm like, you know they make most of the music they're playing, And so like trying to explain that to him, but yeah, like things that were nerdy, like I played the flute in middle school and high school marching band until I made a transition to percussion and the snare line and it was like, yeah, I got made fun of, but then like I tell people now, I'm in my 30s and they're like, you played the flute? That's kind of fucking sick. And I'm like, yeah, They think of Anchorman now versus like. Dude, seriously, Anchorman saved me,

some jazz flute, Chad. I'm like, let's give it a shot, you know? Yeah. No, that's, I mean, I think like there's also a difference between playing an instrument and composing, you know? And like at the end of the day, production is a composition. And so I feel like there's a different, it's a different set of skills for that. That's no less impressive than the ability to play an instrument. Yeah. If anything, I feel like it's more, cause it requires more like vision.

and sort of creativity compared to just, I don't know, you can get away with playing an instrument technically well without much creativity. know, if you're good at, like, I feel like my, when I started to learn saxophone, I was good at saxophone because I was good at...

reading music and keeping time and like all the technical pieces and then when I got into jazz that's really for the first time I think I really got to explore the creative you know the creativeness of music.

So you can play music and it be more of a technical skill than it is even say a creative act. Well, I think that's a really great point. mean, the composition and the composer, the instrumentalists are the tools for that composer. They're like, OK, for this track, this track, this song, I need, you know. Yeah, Bach was saying, for this track. Yeah, Bach, Beethoven's this track right here, bro.

No, mean, it's like, I need a really a ripping horn section for this song or like this song is very melodic. I need some really great woodwinds. And so like I think that's a good point. Like, yeah, technical instruments, like people who can play really fucking well, like they're important, but they are the vehicle for the composer to get their idea across. Absolutely. And I mean, that's not that far from like, say,

a development perspective, right? Like you have the people who are more like managerial development in terms of like engineering and like technology. You have like the, the engineering managers, the PMs, product managers, like the, you know, your upper leadership. That's like more of like the strategic side. And then you have like the engineers, the senior, you know, level six engineer that's like really fucking good at writing code. And so like the, there's, it's not that the high level is any less important or that it's, just a different set of skills. And it's the same thing with composition. Yeah.

And can we take a moment to just appreciate how incredibly, genius behind creating work when you don't have a pad where you can just hear any sound. Dude, I think, yes, it is so wild to me to think about just anyone in the world doing anything creative.

So like something from somebody's brain just making it onto a page or a paper or anything like that. I think that that is creativity at its core. And there's so many people where they're like, oh, I'm not creative. I'm not very creative. it's like, everyone's creative in some way. I just don't necessarily think they know.

how they're creative. Decorating a living room is creativity. They have a vision for that. Dude, I hate to say it, crafting a well-worded email is like, you're pretty good with words. You could maybe write. Who knows? think, I was blessed to grow up with parents who were musical and creative, and they fostered that in me. My dad was also an athlete, sports was a thing too, but I was like,

Nah man, I'm gonna go play the flute, which probably broke my dad's heart, but like, at the end of the day, he probably was like, I mean, my kid wants to be a musician maybe one day, so like, hell yeah. So like, think fostering creativity in all facets is important. Yeah. And I think, you know, we go through life and, well actually, before I make this statement, I'm curious, What's definition of creativity?

That is tough. Honestly, I think it's just taking something within your brain or your heart or your soul and bringing it into the world. And however you choose to do that is what makes you creative. So for some people, dude, there's some people who play Call of Duty all day, right? I'm a gamer too, so it's like, there's people who play Call of Duty all day, but there's people who are really good at Call of Duty. And it's like,

having to come up with a " creative solution" or creative ways to win is like, dude, there's strategy. Dude, there are military generals who have to be creative in how they approach war, which is like not awesome, but like the creativity is everywhere. And I think like if you're thinking of something and then it manifests in real life, like that is creativity in action. Yeah.

It also kind of irks me when someone's like, I'm not creative. I'm like, but you are maybe there's creative and like a very obvious sense of like creating art or creating music. But I think to your point of like decorating a living room, like that in and of itself is creativity. I think if people started to perhaps recognize that there's creativity required for anything that is like creating something uniquely human, then.

perhaps that would help them massage that muscle or exercise that muscle just a little bit more and explore creativity in other ways. Yeah, and I think you touched on something that I think is really a hot topic right now, which is uniquely human with AI these days. there are ways to be creative with AI, straight up, there just are.

if you're generating an image based on words that you came up with, it's like, I wouldn't call that creative, not even the piece of art itself or whatever it's generating. That's not creativity, that's programming, which, mean, you're the software guy, it's like, maybe that has some creativity, but in my head, that is very, there are laws, this is how this is supposed to be typed out. And so,

to create something uniquely human, I think, is going to be so pivotal moving forward for everyone in their daily lives because as AI takes over, it's gonna be kind of important. And I think people are getting good at it pretty quickly of deciphering whether or not something is AI or isn't. I saw a video yesterday and I was like, I did not know that that was AI. But I- Was it the car expo? Have you seen that video? No, it's actually like-

It's kind of funny. It's like this super racist meme where like this black kid walks into like a car dealership. It has to do with cars and he's like, what's up? I'm Evan. I'm looking for a Toyota Camry. And then the sales guy's like, all right, Tyrone, here's your Dodge charger. it's like, dude, and it's like funny, right? It's hilarious. is objectively funny. It's objectively funny. But it's like, if I had just like, dude, I think about like my parents and like my dad would watch that and be like,

this is real, like this is absolutely real. So like there is creativity and like someone came up with that joke and then put it into AI, that is creative. like, so that's what I mean, what's like there are ways to be creative with it, but I think it's gonna be more important than ever moving forward. 100%, cause I think like, I think about the way that I choose to, it's about the choice, how do you leverage AI? Because I think there's a, and that choice comes down to both a

technical specification of how to use it. So like what are the areas of my life that could potentially be optimized by AI, but also like a, don't know if this is an ethical way, but it's almost more of like a humanist way of like, what are the areas that I want and feel that AI should be a part of my life, right? Like the example I like to think about is like, I use ChatGPT, you know, for things that make sense.

A lot of people use chat, and I'll get back to what making sense even means, but you see people who post screenshots of a conversation with a partner and they're like, how do I respond to this text? it's like, while AI may be able to craft a response that is seemingly empathetic, that is seemingly something that would be desirable by your partner, and perhaps they're sharing prior messages with this person so they get a sense for how does your partner actually

respond, receive, and also share to get a better sense of how to deal with that individual. the reality is I don't believe that's an area, while AI may be able to craft a better response than you can organically, I don't feel it's a way that it should because your relationship with another human is about the human connection. like, you

I don't think that's changing or maybe that's like the old, like I don't want to live in a world or I certainly wouldn't want my relationships with people to be something where like they're operating and communicating with me through the lens of an AI. I don't want to, you know, connect. However, perhaps for a business meeting, you know, in response to an email prompt that you say, you regurgitate your thoughts and say, make this a clear, concise email, that's different because the purpose of it is to save time.

and craft a concise, succinct response that is professional, but I don't want something super rigid and professional. I don't work in a super corporate environment. I'm a freelancer, so I want something that sounds like my voice, only in the sense that it's more or less casual. But it saves time. my point is, I think when you think about how AI influences us, or the ways that we choose to leverage AI, it's like, should it be used?

I believe it should be used in ways where it is optimizing for a technological gap that computers are better, that human beings are. So whether that's writing code or editing podcast software, like this software, when it uploads anything, just automatically creates snippets for social media, it automatically creates edits and trims.

Hey, you're talking, I'm talking. So like the camera is going to be on me. And then once it hears your voice, it'll switch the camera to you. And then when we're talking over each other, whatever, like there obviously needs to be trimming, but like I 100 % want to use AI for that because that significantly reduces the amount of time I spent editing. So going back to your point about the AI generated video, you know, if, if there's, I think the power of AI or technology as a whole is like when there's a gap between your skill as a human,

and your idea as a creative, AI can fill that void and create something that stems from a human desire, a human creative act, a human emotion, but it's able to go through the technical minutiae that's more formulaic, as you mentioned earlier, about, you know, you have to, there's sort of frameworks and processes that you go through, whatever. So I think that's a great, exceptional use case of AI. And I'm curious to hear about how AI kind of touches,

your production process. But I think there is creativity required for that specific example, because you as a human have to ideate what you want that artificial intelligence to actually create for you. But you don't want to necessarily go through all the technical minutiae. Dude, and that I think is exactly it. That person that made that AI-generated video is like, I don't know how to create this. I know what would make it funny.

And so they're using AI as a means to get their joke across in a funny way. And yeah, I mean, AI, as far as like your, your skill gaps, like I'm a project manager in my corporate life and I'm studying it's what, what does it call like CPM AI? It's my cognitive project management in artificial intelligence. So like, I know some shit sometimes. Right. And it's like, I think there are business, like there is a time and place for AI in

business and corporate settings. But you're absolutely right. If you're asking AI how you should respond to your boyfriend or girlfriend, like that you're basically telling on yourself. Like I don't know my partner well enough to know how to respond to this. And so I'm now asking a non sentient being, like it's one thing to ask your friends for advice. And I people are like, like they're fine. Like they're treating AI like a friend, which okay,

I think there's some danger there, like, I swear to God, if I was asking chat GPT how to like respond to my girlfriend in an argument, I'm already cooked. Dude, like, it's already done. Like, just give up and be like, babe, I'm sorry, I don't really know what to say to that. And I think that's another thing, being able to say like, I don't know what to say to that. Yes, yes, yes, yes. Like, and that's a whole different like philosophy on relationships in general, but like. But I think in a business sense that also holds true, right? Like the vert, like.

What's better to wear Ray-Ban meta glasses where you get a, like there's a conversation with a prospect and they ask a question that you can't field off the top of your head but you have these glasses that project literally in front of your eyes the response. Is that better than saying, I'm not sure, let me get back to you on that. Yeah, I don't have enough information to make an informed opinion.

response. Which is a valid response in and of itself. Totally. And I think more people need to use it. Like you don't have to know everything. And I think so many people these days and I don't know whether it's just the pressure of like you know, no one wants to feel stupid. Right. But not knowing doesn't make you stupid. It just means you don't know. And you're you're literally saying I don't have enough information. Maybe you can explain a little bit more in detail. What context am I missing. And I think that's maybe just an emotional maturity type of thing. But also

Yeah, dude, on a larger, more broad thing, I think all these tech companies are making shit that no one asked for. so AI, we all knew it was coming. It's been around for a long time. But I think that there is some truth to the matter of needing certain things. There are some things that we need. Again, AI, no one asked for it.

I don't think, but like certainly like boomers didn't ask for AI generated content of, you know, Donald Trump and Biden fighting each other in a boxing ring, like, and thinking it's real. But like, I think there's a need for it in certain contexts. But in other contexts, I think it's a real inhibitor of creativity, bringing it all the way back.

Yeah, so house started in Chicago and for, you know, black queer people, like that's what it was made for. That's what it is.

And so techno started in Detroit. Same situation there. And so because that music is inherently black music, sucks to see techno, maybe there's a gray area, right? Because people associate techno with Germany, even though they're wrong. It's Detroit. But Germany has its own style.

that emerged around the same time, but not really. So I think like it sucks to see white people dominate the field of black music in every facet, dude. Elvis has been going on since then, which Elvis is great, don't get me wrong, but it doesn't become popular. And I think rap is unique in that you do have famous white rappers.

But the majority of rappers that people are listening to are black men and women. So it's like back to house music. The most popular house music artists are John Summit, Fisher, Chris Lake, and then you have, and Sammy Virgie, and then you have Carl Cox, which everyone will acknowledge is a legend. But that's one out of five. And for every John Summit, you know, there's an equal and opposite black artist out there that could be getting put on but isn't.

And that sucks. So in that situation, my hot take was I think a lot more black people need to be making house music and stop trying to be the next Travis Scott and really get into the soul of it. Dude, and the same thing can be said for jazz. I actually I'm glad you brought it there because I was curious to hear your take on jazz. Like it's the same. My best friend from back home, like he's a tremendous saxophone player and drummer. Dude, he's listening to Charlie Parker and like

fucking playing bebop and I'm like, this is fucking awesome. But it's always the nerdy white kids playing and listening to jazz these days. And it's like, okay, I get it's not mainstream, but it was for a while. And like now that it's not, I do obviously know that there's a ton of wonderful black musicians doing wonderful things and getting the recognition they deserve. And I'm not trying to say that white people shouldn't also be getting the recognition they deserve. I'm just saying like,

there are so many people consuming this culture with no knowledge of where it came from and not understanding like this is disproportionate. Yeah. And on the flip side, there's so many people who are unaware of the culture where it's like historically embedded in who they are and where they come from. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, I mean, and I think we got on the topic of like, make the whitest dance music, which is progressive house and trance and like,

But I've been experimenting, right? Like doing more like not UKG, but just bouncier house music. like that's what I want to do as an artist. It's like be put on. like my brand of progressive house is very gospel and jazzy. And like that's what I love doing. And that is like black culture. And so early in my career,

I would get some signings, later when I was trying to reach and sign to some bigger labels, like, you know, man, these chords just aren't doing it for me. Like they're not, they're kind of unorthodox. And I'm like, motherfucker, like I'm some blue notes out here, like, and that's okay. Like, but just because I'm throwing some like fucking weird progressions your way, that doesn't make it like bad. And do you even know where this comes from? Like, and then I had to stop and be like, no, like they just don't get it.

and that's okay. And so that's where I'm kind of at, at the precipice of this moment in my career where I'm like, I'm gonna just say fuck it and just stop trying to appease labels and be like, oh I gotta follow this formula, like if I do this weird chord, they might not like it. Like no, like I'm at this point now in my career where I'm like, I'm just gonna be black and do my jazz and gospel shit and like do what I wanna do. And if no one signs it, fuck them, that sucks for them. Yeah, this actually came up with.

earlier today it's an interesting position that you're in because there's really no way to...

win in a sense, it's like if you're damned if you do and damned if you don't, right? If you make a, know, follow the chord progressions that are expected, follow sort of the framework that's been, you know, paved before you. While it may appease certain people and it may appease the labels, what ends up happening is like your audience is going to recognize that that doesn't come from your sound, that isn't your sound, that isn't uniquely you, that isn't unique perhaps. And they're going to not like it.

So it's kind of like, it feels like you're making the decision for yourself, but it also, you know, sort of ensures that people, you're at least going to have an authentic sound, right? And while that may not be initially appealing to the masses and you're going to have to grow in order to get to the masses, perhaps it's like, well, yeah, but you only get to the masses if you have a really unique and authentic sound. But part of the reason why it starts small is because it's different.

Dude, it's this Catch 22. Yeah. Right. It's like when I first started out, I was making tracks that were like really fucking jazzy. Like I listen back to them. I'm like, damn, this is like jazz progressive house. And then as I've gotten later into my career, like you listen in a couple of my latest, like maybe not the last two or three, but like there's like a middle portion in there, like 2021, 2022, 23 where I'm making like

I'm not gonna call it basic. It still has my voice in there, but it's not like it's safe. It's safe music where it's like, but then it's like, dude, even some of that shit I'm making isn't getting signed. So it's like, but I'm still, I'm not gonna put out something I don't like. I'm not even gonna make something I don't like. That's why I don't do sync licensing. Cause it's like, dude, I'm not gonna make music for this commercial. Like I don't give a shit about this. And like there are people that out there that like that's their gig. makes them money.

great for them, I think I have fans who connect with me and One of my things is I don't have fans, I have friends. If you fuck with my music, we're friends. You're not a fan. And so it's like I have friends out there who really love what I do and everything I put out. And there's so many people that just make me feel so good and make me feel like I'm on the right path. It has empowered me to this point to be like,

I don't give a fuck if the label let, dude I know these 15 people are gonna fuck with this track. And like, that's enough for me. You know, I don't need to be playing the main stage at EDC. I don't need to, and that's How I define success is, did I impact somebody with this song? If it's even one person who messages me and is like, dude I love this song, then like, that's really all I needed, you know, out of the whole endeavor. So, that's why I do it.

I love that. Yeah, thank you. Thank you for sharing that. that's a big driver behind like wanting to do this and talk to people is just like I'm so enamored by people who are able to have that mentality of like, no, this is for me. Who gives a fuck? It's for me. And in that

It's for so many other people, but like it genuinely is for other people. It's not perception

of other people. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. mean, DJing today is like, when I started DJing, like there was a lot of DJs, but there wasn't that many DJs. It wasn't that big of a thing at the time. And I started DJing in the era where like dude Skrillex was like

just starting. like Scary Monsters and Ice Brights had just come out. I think it was 2010. Yeah, I was just saying, nine, 10, something like that. Dude, and I remember being like a sophomore in college at this house party and this like, dude, one of the whitest kids I know, we called him McLovin, dude. And he goes, dude, have you heard of Skrillex? And I'm like, no. He's like, do you know what dubstep is? I was like, no.

And he's like, don't you love electronic music? I'm like, yeah, but I'm into the crystal method and some more breakbeat type shit. And he's like, well, check this shit out. And he puts on Scary Monsters and Ice Prides. And I was like, this is the worst shit I've ever heard in my whole life. What the fuck is this? Turn it off. And then suddenly, I'm starting to hear more dubstep. And I'm like, all right.

I think it was, I had never heard anything like it before. And so my initial reaction, because I like more housey, bouncy stuff, traditionally, hear dubstep. I hear dubstep and I'm like, this isn't music, this is just noise. That's like what everyone says, right? And then like, dubstep kind of birthed, I'm not gonna say birthed, but like trap came to be a thing. And I fucking love hip hop and rap. So like once trap came out, I was like,

Alright, this is kinda like dubstep, but it's not. This is more hip hop with dubstep elements. And dude, I to this day fuck with trap. All day. Dude, if I'm driving down the highway and I'm trying to get home quick, I'll throw on some Ricky Sand. Throw on some trap. Let's take rap and its lyrical genius and blend it with way better beats. I'm sorry, but fucking 808 shit, it gets boring and like

I get it, you're focusing on the lyrics more than you are. But at the same time, it's like, why not just throw some funky, sploinky shit in there? Yeah, some hoinky sploinky, dude. And I think that's such a good point. that's why the Jack U, Skrillex and Diplo, dude, that song, fucking Fabriz with two chains, is so good. And it's like a perfect blend of all of that, like, culture. Dude, and I remember thinking back to Diplo,

when he came out with that song, Bubble Butt, I was like, okay dude, we're in there, we're in there. Like, cause that was like, Paris Hilton was like the shit back in the day. And then like, Kim K came out of nowhere and was like, it's okay to have a big ass and curves. And then I was like, we in there, like, yeah dude. And then that song came out and I was like, who the fuck is Diplo? And that's when I learned he was in major, is in major laser and all this other stuff. And it's like seeing black culture, like rap,

mixed with dubstep and then become this thing. And now we got two chains on Skrillex tracks. And now Skrillex, dude, he's making all types of shit now. And like I do consider him the goat. Like him and Deadmau5 are like in their respective arenas, goats. And so, yeah dude, I don't remember even how we got on this path. I don't know either, but I don't care. Isn't it so funny how like jarring, whether like, I think,

I don't know if dubstep was probably like the first genre of EDM that I came across and I was like, I feel like I liked dubstep, like heavy bass shit. one, okay, you want to know one that I can't get into. I was going to say those are the ones that were the most jarring. I can't get into Cy Trance. Like the... It's just like, it's so much. it's, it does still...

feel a bit like noise to me. Like it hasn't quite gone over that. I don't think I've done enough drugs to appreciate Cytrance, nor do I think I ever will. Yeah, Cytrance is one of those weird ones. It's the same way for me. Like I don't dislike Cytrance. It's good. It's like a nice, what do you, like.

If trance is the salad, right?

Cytrans is the fucking food fight. Well, it's like the Coutre Mare. I don't know what the fuck they call it. Like the nuts and the cranberries on top of the salad. I'm fucking deathly allergic to nuts. I equally unpalatable. Like I like sight. can get into some Cytrans, but I need it's like a small doses thing. Yeah. I feel like the more metaphors you're coming up with, the more it's the worst picture. Yeah. The worst is more accurate. Yeah. That's so funny. Yeah. I've got a buddy who makes Cytrans. His name's SK.

Denver guy, he's fucking awesome at it. And the side trance he makes is so good. But I like listening. All so I gotta talk to him. Yes, he's great, dude. my mind. I listen to his tracks and I'm like, this is fucking great. And I'm like, I still couldn't listen to an hour of this. I just couldn't. And I will tell you, I've always loved drum and bass. That's another one for certain people where they can't get into it. But dude, as a kid growing up playing video games,

Dude, drum and bass and break beat is in every racing game of all time. so, dude, Need for Speed Most Wanted has so, for PS2, I'll never forget that shit, has so much drum and bass in it. Jen, my girlfriend, she's like, how long have you been listening to drum and bass? I was like, as long as I can fucking play Ridge Racer on PlayStation. Dude, seriously, so, yeah. And that's a great framing of the...

It's palatable in small doses because I do I do think that now that I now I think about it side trance like it can get me pretty amped like drum and bass I I can bump to and anything that gives you the opportunity to do one of the best exercises on the planet dude moshing yeah Not for me at all dude Dude and that gets me to my most hated genre fucking rid of

Dude, rhythm, it's the worst shit on planet Earth. my God. When I think about what noise is, it's that. Like, well, dude. it like spacey sounds? Like lasers, guns, what sounds are they? It is just the harshest, non-rhythmic. Like, I guess it's rhythmic, right?

But it's just kick on one, snare on three, a bunch of bullshit, and that's the whole song. Do you have examples of Dude, okay, probably the biggest one I would say, and I don't even know if this is right because I don't listen to this shit, but like Sullivan King and Sudden Death. I think Sudden Death has an incredible brand.

His whole thing is like this demonic, satanic shit, which is like, it makes some people uncomfortable. He's an artist. That's the way he chooses to express himself. So his like void shows, I watch videos of that, and I'm like, I could see why people would be into this. I don't like the music, but it's a show, right? It's a whole thing. And so I can get it. It's not fucking for me. I would never be caught there.

It's like this just dude, do look it up but don't. Rhythm is like. Do you know the song Dragonhawks? No. Okay, it sounds like Dragonhawks. Not so much like, I like Dragonhawks to be clear. I forget the artist off the top of my head. But it has a very like death kind of like.

you can't defeat the dragon hawks. It's kind of stuff like that, like like harsh. Yes, it's very harsh dude. And like for me again, I like jazz. I like chords. I like melody and there just isn't any of that in that music. there is sort of this like this like on one end you have like just the most classical music, right? Or or or

perhaps opera or something where it's like intentional beautiful melodies with percussion that serves as a, I don't know, like the undertone, the beat and a little bit of sprinkles on top. But it's really about the melodies and then you kind of progress through jazz and then rock and then you get to more aggressive heavy shit and then at the far end of the spectrum it's just like.

And that's where I feel like the psy trance is. like the jazz, you know what I mean? like the, what did you even call it again? Rhythm. Rhythm. So it's like rhythm, like you, rhythm. With two D's, rhythm. R-I-D-D-U-M. R-I-D-D-I-M. don't necessarily know its origins. I think it comes from like somewhere in Jamaica. Like to be honest. That sounds right. I know like dub and all that shit. Like it's got those roots, but like rhythm, what it is today, like,

Dude, I just like, it is straight up mosh pit, like aggressive head bang type shit. But it's not, it's not head bang like, okay, I'm gonna maybe like out myself as like a basic metal head. I'm not a metal head, but like, I fucking love Kill, Switch, Engage. It's like heavy, right? I'm not gonna call that metal, but it's heavy. But he's got melody in there. He's a fantastic fucking singer. And like,

I can take the heavy with the melody, which is why I like dubstep. But once you take all the melody out and it's just the heavy, some people, anything that someone's like, I need the grime-iest, filthiest, most discut, yeah, miss me with all that, dude. I don't need any of that to describe the music I listen to, period. So how would you describe the music you listen to? Dude, I think it depends. I mean.

It really does depend. Dude, my mood changes so often. I will like listen to like disturbed. Right. And I think my mom has like the most eclectic musical tastes on the planet. Like she's the one that got me into dance music. Listening to.

The Crystal Method I think I mentioned earlier, dude, the Tweakend album came out and it was like my first foray into like electronic music. But not really, because video games, dude, fighting games, dude, if you go back and play some old Street Fighter games, dude, they're playing house music and that shit. And it's like, that was kind of like my first foray into it. But then I started to get more into like rock and roll. My dad's a rock singer and like all of this stuff. But I think right now,

All the music I listen to is at the very least melodic. whether it's bass line, like a bass line is melodic. Like, UKG is the wave, house is the wave. I love fucking, the only type of stuff I can't really get into is like, and I respect him and his label, but like the Lane 8, this never happened, people are gonna really come for me for that. But like- You gotta move out of Denver after that shit. I know dude! Like, it's not bad.

I'm not gonna sit here and call it bad music. I think Riddles is bad music. But I think it's inherently good music. I opened for Lane 8 in 2013. No shit. In Columbus, Ohio. It was one of his first, this never happened shows at Park Street Saloon with my buddy Entel, who I just played with in Columbus last weekend actually. And the shows, the club environment is awesome.

I will say like his, the This Never Happened shows are fucking baller. With like no phones and things like that. Exactly. I think there needs to be more of those. 100%. But like, am I gonna go and just like listen to Lane 8 while I'm in the car? Probably not. But. Do you listen to, so none of that. Like you wouldn't listen to like Sultan and Shepard. wouldn't listen to I fuck with Sultan and Shepard. Really? What's? Dude they played my music on their radio shows and I like it. But it's like, again, in a club setting.

Like, is this gonna be my preferred? sorry, so you're only talking about a club setting, not just like in general? Even in general, dude. And maybe it's because I'm a DJ that I'm really looking for music I would be playing or listening to in a club setting. If I wanna just listen to music, dude, I'm listening to synth wave and lo-fi all day, every day. While working or just while sitting and enjoying the music? Both. Really? Yeah.

Can you paint me a picture of the most ideal performance you could ever do for a crowd? So, yeah. Today, actually, I just posted my first headline set from Idaho Falls. I put it up on YouTube and SoundCloud.

I used to play a lot of bass music. I used to go by Black Rabbit in Columbus. That was my first DJ name and I was playing dubstep. I was playing trap because that's what was hot in Ohio. That's still what's hot in Ohio. That's where Lost Lands is. And I loved it. I really did. But I always found myself making the deeper progressive, dead mouse type of progressive house. And I was like, well, like,

I can't really put both of these in a set, especially not here in Columbus. And then, you know, as I've matured as an artist and gotten more involved in different genres, that headline set, I listened back. Dude, I go from playing Tin Liquor to playing my own tracks to like some Nora and Pure. And then I play, I drop into like some Feed Me and then I start playing Boombox Cartel. And then it's like,

that future base meets progressive house.

I would love to start a set at like 126 and play some deep progressive vibes and eventually work my way up into like 130 electro house, like old Porter Robinson, and then get up to 140 and play some fucking trap and then bring it back down and play. So like in that set, I got up to like, I stayed around like 128, 130, but I played some like bass music in there. I played some bass house and it's like,

For me, that's my ideal set. But when I play here in Denver, it's not a headline set, first of all, so I can't play trap. And it's like, if I could... What about in terms of setting? Where would you want it to be? Dude, I think that answer has changed. I actually thought about this this morning. I would love to play a massive festival, right? I think that is a bucket list item.

It used to be the dream, but now I think it's just a bucket list item because I played with Paul Van Dyke at the church a couple months ago and it was an opening set from 10 to 11 and it was sold out and it packed by like 10, 15, the floor was full. And so I had to like sit with that on stage and be like this fucking

crazy. Dude, I'm playing an opening set and it's already full. And because of that, I got everything I needed. It was like, this room is full. I'm playing to a bunch of people who are vibing out, having a good time. And so that size room, I think is perfect. Quality over quantity. Dude, seriously, like if you're going to EDC and you're going to play the main stage, like that is an experience. But I have so many friends who tour.

And they all say, I love a festival set, but there's nothing like an intimate club set. And they all say that, all of them. And so I have to know, I have that here. And so I need to appreciate it while I have it. And of course I'm gonna keep striving to play in other spaces, but having a good intimate club spot, think is like, that's all I need, man. I don't need more than that. And some people are trying to like, dude, Disclosure just played real works.

they're probably tired of playing these like Coachella and shit. like, let's go back to where the people are here for the music. Which is funny, they chose Real Works. I like Real Works. I feel like Real Works is where you go if you want to party and Mission's where you want to go if you want to listen to good music. Like if you care about the artist.

the amount of cocaine I feel like that I've witnessed at RealWorks is significantly greater than Mission. But I tend not to be close to that substance, I don't know, maybe it is happening at Mission and I'm just oblivious to it. It's happening everywhere, but I will say RealWorks lends itself to be, it's kind of dark and warehousy, which I like, but Mission, dude, Mission's the best venue I've ever been to in my life. Have you ever been to Atlanta?

No, I mean I've been there, not for music, but. We have a venue called the Eastern, which is also AEG, and it's basically the same exact thing as Mission, and it's phenomenal. It's like, I mean, it's phenomenal in a different way than say the Gorge or Red Rocks is, right? Yeah. Those are venues that are iconic and clearly have like.

Well, there's like natural beauty and there's like sound, you know, impressive amps that are from fucking rocks and gorgeous shit. That's a whole nother level. But in terms of like purely a manufactured venue and its ability to like attract artists and create just like a fucking phenomenal environment that's clean, easy, logistically great. Dude, the gorge is like.

It is so wonderful. That is such a beautiful place. I've actually never been. Dude, you do it. I know. I love Washington. I went there. I guess I just there for the first time in March and it was fucking amazing. Yeah, it's hot as fuck in the summer so be aware. like, dude, pick like... Where is it in Washington? George, Washington. Do you know where that is? No, it's somewhere out in their desert, dude. Oh, it's desert. Okay, so it's pretty dry. It's not very forest Washington. dry. No, it's super hot.

But there's that big like river that runs behind the stage Right off a cliff and you can see it from it. Dude. It's gorgeous. It's insane. It's orange. Yes, it's gorgeous Yes, exactly, but it's it I've for a group therapy weekender That's fucking amazing I did not expect that No, dude, it's I went for a group therapy weekender twice and

saw Above and Beyond and a bunch of the N'Juna artists there and like, dude that's another fucking thing about dance music culture is it's like, I made like a reel about like why I left bass music and I mentioned rhythm because that was where the genre was going but I also mentioned the culture. Dude, the like,

percentage of DJs who get canceled being bass DJs is like, it's most of them. Most of them. For being abusers and assholes and just like bad people. Got it. Like Bass Nectar is probably the one that most people know. Dat Sick is another one most people know. Graves was one of my favorite future bass artists and when it came out that he like,

got canceled, was like, no, just be a good guy. Like, it's not that hard to not be a dickhead and like put women in scenarios they don't want to be in. Like, it's not hard, just don't do that. And so, yeah, the culture of it, and it's like, if you go to a base show here, it's typically a younger crowd. And so, they don't know how to drink, they don't know how to hold their drugs, they don't know how to do shit. And so, my...

Middle aged, aged. I'm 34, but like mid 30s now I'm in here and I'm like, dude, look at how drunk that kid is over there. Like in public, dude, like it's one thing if you're at your house fucked up, like, but in public and then that's like widespread. I can't even go to a Bay show without like, again, there being a mosh pit, which is like part of their culture, which is why I VIP. I'm not going to like, yeah, if I'm buying GA, I expect to be in a mosh pit, but like.

I don't know, man. And then I go to like Anjuna events or just Deep House, this never happened type shit, those events. It's typically an older crowd. People are hanging out, having a little bit of conversation. It's a vibe. It's a vibe. Like that's the best way I can describe it. And I don't know if it's just cause I'm getting older, but like I went to go see Nero at the church. I think this was like two years ago and like it was kind of funny cause there was like a section in the back.

You could tell we were all like old Nero fans like back in their like the 2013 2012 era like old Nero and we were all in the back because we were like we don't want to be up there with that and like the the direct support DJ I don't even remember his name it's fine bro he was playing the the biggest tear out rhythm dude it is just like the most aggressive shit and I'm like I want to see Nero but I don't want to be in this in this crowd

Like, I like the music, but I don't want to be around these people. And so I've just kind of reserved myself to being like, I'm just not gonna go to bass music shows, which sucks. Like, I like Excision. Like, I fuck with Excision. But like, I went to Lost Lands and I hated it. And so it's like, I don't know, man. You are just old and grouchy. I think so. I think so. But I get it at the same time. I'm kidding. Like, I think it's...

I do find myself in certain environments I really like the high energy and the moshing.

In fact, think moshing is something I don't have in my life frequently enough to where like I would ever come across it and not Explore it. Yeah Because I don't feel like I go to many shows where it's there I go to many shows where I hope it's there because I don't get to scratch that itch all that often Yeah, and we fucking love rhythm shows, dude, dude, but I also like to need to like the music too, you know Yeah, do you do you listen to like knock to or yes. I so XO. Yes. Yeah, I saw I've seen I so XO twice and like moshing

And Knock 2 I think once and like moshing at their shows are just amazing. Dude and that's, dude Knock 2 I got like a long LP promo in my promo inbox and typically like it's not something I would download. You know what promos are right? No. So promos are like DJs or their team will send out their music in advance 60 days, 30 days, 90 days and you get it for DJs that you have selected to.

have it and they can play it out or get feedback or whatever. Not remix. It's just like you have the song before it comes out. cool. So Knock 2 was actually in my promo like on Inflite and I was like I fuck with Knock 2 and I listened to the whole thing and I was like I'm downloading every single one of these and it's like I'm not going to play these live not as Dyscognition but like I like this music and maybe I'll be able to find a space where I can play this stuff. Like that level of music

Dude, that's good shit. He's got incredible music. think he's LA. Yeah. And it's like, dude, I fuck with that. That bass music, I fuck with that a lot. sometimes I miss making it. I think that's kind an interesting distinction there, which is where you have the music that you enjoy listening to, which is probably a really broad spectrum, especially given your background.

But then you have the music you like creating and that's a whole, that's something that tends to be more specific. It's like a blend of skills past musical experience that lend itself well to what you're trying to do. And then just like general, like, yeah, what do you like? Maybe some others. Yeah, and like, not to keep bringing it up, but like with Rhythm. Keep on fucking shitting on it, No, actually, this is a good thing about Rhythm. So like back when it was like first really making a like,

a wave into it. It was about the sound design, right? It was just noise, but like someone was making those sounds in a synth. And then it was like, okay, how the fuck did you make that sound? And so a lot of these sound design guys were like, how the fuck? Like, this is crazy shit that this guy's making. like, but now you have like splice. And so with splice, people are just downloading patches with whatever sound it is.

downloading like a drum loop and then putting like a SpongeBob, I'm ready, right before the fucking drop and then it just drops into this crazy fucking shit, which is like, okay. And like, so it used to be like, I think there was a culture behind it. It was like, these sound design guys and it was like, let me show you some shit that I made. But now it's just like the lowest barrier of entry because like, it's not complex drum wise.

It's not, there's no melody. So it's not complex, like technically musically. It's just sound patches that somebody has put in a way that they throw it into Ableton and then they export a two and a half minute rhythm track. And then they're like, okay, book me for EDC. so, yeah, I think it used to be a really like healthy piece of the culture. And then it turned into just something I hated. And that's all I'll.

I'll leave it at that, I'm tired of sitting on Rhythm, I'm sorry. No, I think, honestly though, think, I feel like that you're not shitting on Rhythm, you're shitting on a shift in, honestly, technology and creation. You're not like Rhythm, it's kind of like, even if you don't like the art, you can almost appreciate that it's art. And you can appreciate someone for creating it. But once it just becomes like an output or something that loses the like,

then it's like, well now it's no longer, like it was cool because it was a craft. It's like if you make a hand-carved wooden table that's not all that sophisticated but functions well and looks good, you're like, I appreciate that table. But then if Ikea creates that exact same table and it's like a piece of shit that's gonna break in a year, it's like,

You don't really appreciate it for the craft anymore. You're just like, all right, that's kind of a utility and I get why it's there. So like, if you just want to you know, it's like there's a serving of purpose if you just want to mosh as a utility and there you go and it's accessible and easy, but it lacks the craftsmanship. Yeah. Yeah. And you know, I think, and that's a gun goes back to our earlier discussion is like unique sound, like your voice and like, I don't hear it in any rhythm, but that's not to say

that there isn't voice or sound within that. If I was a connoisseur, I'd be able to tell. For example, dude, Marsh, like with Anjun Adi, when one of his tracks comes on, I know it's him. Simon Doty's another guy like that. Like Knox Vaughn, another guy like that. And it's like, I'm sure that exists in that realm, but I don't spend any time in that realm on purpose. And so like,

I will say that I can acknowledge and appreciate that there's a wealth of people out there who love that stuff and I stay in this lane because it's what I enjoy. 100%. Yeah, that unique sound, I like that point because I think it's sort of like, I love Ben Bowmer, one of my favorite artists of all times, just a fucking.

beautiful, I don't even know how to say what I want to say. He's just amazing. Yeah, he's great. He's great. He's just amazing. his music is so uniquely his. Like when he released, think Bloom was his most recent album, when it came out I just like, I remember just running through it so many times and like, oh this is just magical and this is so Benjamin. Yeah. Oh you. But the, on the flip side,

Let's explore what happened with Rufus de Sol and their demise. They sort of like crossed this line where like it almost felt like when they released their most recent album and I, this is the second time I'm shitting on them and fucking for sure. I don't care. You gotta do it. 100%. It's deserved. It sounded like they just said to some AI,

Here's our past discography. Here's the sounds that we use. Create an album based on that. So it's not really unique. You're not really coming up with creative, interesting, unique ways to stitch together your sound and make music. It's just like, that's just your sound.

I'm curious like your thoughts, like is that the right way to understand that concept? Do you think that's what's happening? Is it just like you're just using your sound for you? Like where does that, why? Why did I have that emotional reaction to their shit? And I'm like, why did you do that to me, Rufus? Unfollow on Instagram, unfollow, unlike your songs on Spotify, boo. So I will get into it and I think here you bring up a really, really interesting

about artists and pushing their limits or exploring different sounds.

why do I think Rufus's new album sounds like AI trying to make them rather than something that they've done, right? I think that the answer to that is Spotify like the answer is because I

I mean, it's Rufus, right? People are gonna listen regardless. But... Not everyone. Well, okay. And like, just to be clear, like, I have a Rufus record, I have a shirt, I'm like a big, I have been a big Rufus fan. I saw them in my hometown, I saw them in their hometown. Like, I've been able, like, they're not a band that I was like, I like. I was like, fuck, they're so good. Yeah, yeah. I think like, well, and we can get into this a little bit later, but...

streaming has forever changed the landscape of not only how music is made, how it's consumed, but the creative process. so Rufus might have been like... Question. Yeah. How has Spotify changed the creative process? Like

I get that if new technology and tools are introduced that may change the process, but it feels like that's a tech thing more than it is a Spotify thing. Yeah. So I think it's maybe not tooling. They didn't change the creative process, but they have certainly changed. Here's a good example.

And this is getting a little bit like DJ technical on it, but like extended mixes, right? An extended mix was meant for DJs. It was like, you got a minute. Well, actually even going further back, an extended mix was like, just exactly how it sounds. An extended mix, like I'm taking this five minute track and I couldn't say everything I needed to say in five minutes. So here's a seven minute version. Right. Now.

an extended mix, I shouldn't even say now, Five years ago an extended mix was like, okay, you get a minute for intro and a minute for outro so that DJs can easily mix in and out of it. That's purely what they were for. I can't tell you.

I learned that because I was making my extended mixes like, it's little something extra. Like, here's some nice melody in the intro that you won't get in the radio edit. And they're like, hey, can you take all that out? And I'm like, shit. And so now, dude you get a three minute extended mix. And the way that Spotify has changed that is. So three minutes total. Yeah.

An extended mix being three minutes is horseshit. That's just a radio edit. Exactly. That's just a radio edit. And I'm getting in my promos. get- What is a radio edit? So a radio edit is like a version that you would play on the radio. I know that sounds like really condescending, like- No, no. get that. I understand that as a concept, but technically does it mean that there's, it's a specific duration? Does it mean it's not explicit? or does it- So a radio edit would be like,

If there's a minute intro of drums, not much melody going on, a radio edit would maybe start at the bridge or like not the bridge, like the, like right where the vocals come in. Exactly. So it shortens the song to the important parts. But the reason why that's important is because a stream only counts on Spotify If it, if someone listened to it for 30 seconds or more.

And so from there, If your track is seven minutes long, how many times are people going to listen to that whole thing? right. So if it's two minutes, but they listen to three of them, then you're getting 3x the streams. Correct. So that's part one. The second platform to change it is TikTok because now, dude, even at clubs, people will have all this energy.

for like 15 seconds. And then like as soon as that drop has hit and come, like people stop moving around. And so attention spans are now shortened. And so the genre that I'm in, trance and long progressive house, it's like, dude, they don't have the attention span for to listen to a minute long buildup for that payoff of a drop. Like they need that shit right now.

And so then TikTok has now fed into Spotify. It's like a, a, what do you call that shit? Like a feedback loop. So now People are now putting songs on Spotify that are even shorter to appease the TikTok audience. And it's like getting, it just keeps happening. And so to get, bring back to Rufus, People are now putting out safe music

that can be put on in the background. or something that isn't necessarily like taking any risks Because they have to A, appease the Spotify algorithms to say like, if we take too much of a risk here, Spotify may not put it in their editorial playlists and then we'll get less streams, which means we'll get less money, which means we'll get less exposure, all these things. And so I haven't personally listened to Rufus's latest album, but

Ben Bowmer. I love Ben Bowmer. Me and Jen. Jen is obsessed with him. Like he's her favorite artist. She seems like a cool gal. She's a super cool gal. I did pick well. seconds of engaging with her. But dude, we drove up to Aspen to see him play at Belly Up. And it was one of the coolest experiences I've ever had. And then we drove back from Aspen the next day to watch him play again.

at Red Rocks to open for Bob Moses. it was... Was that the fight with Kree and the other... So with Kree and Kurian, which shout out Momiji, she's a super homie of mine. That was at Mission. I was also at that show. Another one of the best shows I've ever been to. But his latest album, neither one of us liked it. And it's just, it's so indie and so accessible. Whereas like,

Ben Bowmer inherently is accessible music, but the latest album was just, wasn't dance music to me. It was more of an indie album. And I can still sit here and say, I love Ben Bowmer and not like that album. And I think Rufus is probably in a similar boat where it's like, what Inner Bloom, dude, is like an anthem, right? And that song will never not hit. Exactly. And I will see that shit live again. Exactly. And I'll enjoy it.

they're probably trying to find out what do they do after Inner Bloom. But even then, that's a lot of pressure on artists. And so, do I know, I don't know them, but they probably had a sit down and they were like, are we happy with this? Yes, put it on Spotify. And it's like, they know people are gonna listen to it and they know a lot. And see, that's again back to that This Never Happened stuff. That is like indie dance music to me.

It's not like what I would consider club music, which is why like day parties work particularly well for that genre of music.

it seems like with Rufus it didn't feel like it was a pivot into a direction that seemed authentic to them. I get that his Ben Boom Bloom might be more, call it indie. And it does feel, when you say it I'm like, yeah, that actually sounds right. Now that may not be your cup of tea, but it doesn't feel like it was, it wasn't genuine.

Yeah, yeah, it feels like bloom wasn't genuine. OK, I think I can understand where you're coming from, at least from that. And again, I would say it's the streaming wars. It is this this compulsive need to hit the algorithm. And let me ask you a question. How many singles did they release ahead of that album? Do you know? I have no idea. OK, that's another thing about Spotify is.

Releasing an album these days is like suicide. unless you're like a Rufus Du Sol or an Odesza or some of those people and the reason I will it's not sue it It's like creative suicide, right? It's like Why would I? put out an album of 12 tracks when Spotify will only at most put one track in their editorial playlists and then

the rest of the tracks I made get no traction whatsoever. And so You'll see now, like if you pay attention to somebody you know is releasing an album, there will be like six singles, seven singles off the album and then the album comes out and there's only like four tracks you haven't heard yet. And it's because the label is trying to get as much out of each track as they possibly can. And so I don't know if Rufus did that or not.

But who's somebody that's coming out with an album that I know? shit, I don't know. that has completely changed the landscape, which is why so many artists are only releasing singles and not releasing albums. Dude, even an EP is worthless. Your A side gets all the traction and your B side gets fucking nothing. Because people listen to Spotify in algorithmic senses. Most people are not clicking on an EP or an album.

to listen to the whole thing unless they really love the track that they heard from that EP or album. So I will say I have a sense of what you're getting at because there are artists that I really love that I will hear a track and I'm like, this doesn't sound like something you would make. This sounds like you pooped this out. And then I get disappointed because I'm like, I know you can do better than this. So I feel like that's kind of what you're getting at with the

album of Rufus Dussel is like it didn't feel genuine to what they wanted to do or what they are known for. But I think that is a fine line between like, well, what does that mean? Is it inauthentic? Maybe not to them. And it would maybe hurt them to hear you say that. But you're a fan. You're entitled to your opinion. And I'm sure there's lots of people out there that feel that same way that you do, because at the end of the day,

Artists will almost never live up to the first time we heard them and how much that changed us in that way. And it's like, I wish I could chase that high of hearing certain songs for the first time ever again. I have a perfect example. There's a song called Inhibitions by Joseph Ray and Knox Vaughn. And the first time I heard that song live was Marsh played it at Q nightclub in Seattle before the Gorge above and beyond group therapy Weekender. And I was like,

What the fuck is this song? And I was like, I know this song. I know who this is. Without even knowing who it is, I knew who it was. And like, I wasn't really friends with Danny at the time yet, Knox Vaughn. And I was like, that's gotta be him. And then they played it again at the festival. And I was like, what is this song? And now it's out. And I love the song. And I played it in my headline set. And I'm like, I still love the song, but I can't like...

I can't get that feeling back. And so once your artist has a favorite song, like this is your favorite song by them, it's very hard for them to top that. And it's rare that it happens. Yeah, I hear you. I think it is very hard to top it. But I'm not asking for topping. I'm just asking for something that's within the ballpark of what you typically put out.

And I'm not trying to be overly critical of it. Yeah, I'm not coming at it from the perspective of it's objectively bad music, because it's not, because it can't be, because it's music. So I'm not going to say it's objectively bad, it just feels like there's less emotion. And I think that's something that

I don't know. I don't know how to understand it or how to express it. And it's been fun talking to all these artists and hearing about the emotion behind the music. We haven't even talked about that yet. We'll say it for next show.

I do want to hit on one last point about AI. You were saying it sounds like the new Rufus album is AI.

generated a Rufus DuSol album. Yeah, yeah. And like, I think you're just gonna hear more of that these days in general with everyone. And, you know, I had a thought, you know, when we're talking about using AI as a tool, you know, I could go on to, I think it's called Suno, Suno AI, and tell it like, write me a dark progressive house, dead mouse inspired track with, you know,

soothing female vocals and it would do it. And like, would it be good? Probably not. But I could take that and turn it into something great. But can I? You know, because at its core, it's not me. It's the AI. And so I think

When people are generating ideas musically with AI, it's not actually coming from them. It's coming from an idea that they had. If I were to write a song like that, somebody gave me that prompt and said, write me a dark progressive house, dead mouse inspired track with soothing vocals. What I come up with is not gonna be what the AI comes up with. And so that again is like. I feel like we should do this as an experiment. Dude, I.

I want to do it because it's like, I would end up turning it into one of my tracks and it would probably be a situation where the fundamental idea that the AI came up with isn't even there, which I think would be the goal, right? Like it started the process for me, but I didn't have to like do the legwork of like, okay, what chord progression do I want to use? Like what, like songwriting is its own skill that I don't have.

And so it's like, could do that. And then I could be like, well, this sounds like a really cheesy line. Let's like maybe change it, you know, a little bit here. So like, I think using it as a tool in that respect, it's not necessarily cheating, but like, I think that that can lead to, it sounds like AI generated a dis-cognition track because it started there, you know? And maybe that's what they did. I don't know.

Probably not, they're all phenomenal musicians, they don't really need it. like, I do think you're gonna maybe see it a little bit more these days, which is actually good for the people that I think don't use it. Exactly, I'm glad you went here, because I feel like there's discernment where you can tell, can understand, like, did that...

Maybe not so much as like, did AI create that? perhaps a better question is like, how much of the creative process was AI, did AI have its hand in? But I think there's a way, there's like an emotional connection and a way to really like understand it as a human to a human versus human to technology. Do you feel similarly? I do, I do. I think like,

I think that's kind of what makes us human. It's like, you can just tell. It's hard to explain sometimes, but you can just tell. I think that's why, and I'm gonna go super technical on the business side of music here, label A &Rs. If a song is generated with AI, they need to be able to discern that. They need to be able to tell.

This is an AI song, not something that you made. But even further than that, I think that again, it goes back to Spotify, right? Because these labels have to make money. And the way that they make money is from streams. And the way that they make money from streams is essentially releasing the same songs over and over and over again.

Spotify has an algorithm that says it kind of sounds like this song you might like this song kind of sounds like this song it sounds like this song and so what ends up happening is you have this completely homogeneous playlist of songs that sound the fucking same dude but they're getting millions of streams so why does the label care? Why should they care about pushing the boundaries? Why should they care about doing something different? Because the second you do something different the Spotify algorithm is like

that doesn't sound like any of this. It's not getting in this playlist. Yeah, it's kind of perverted incentives. Dude, it's terrible. Yet the opposite is true on the dance floor. Like you can get up there and play a fucking playlist of homogenous tunes that all sound the same. The second you play something that sounds a little bit different, the crowd's like, yeah, that's And that's really the job of a DJ. It's not play the songs people want to hear.

It's play the songs people didn't know they wanted to hear. And so that's where I pride myself as a DJ of playing music that I think people will enjoy and that they haven't heard. That is the fundamental job of a DJ. And so people always ask, why don't you play more music in your sets? it's like, you guys already know my music. I want to show you guys some different shit that I'm feeling.

there's a lot of forces that exist that we cannot observe with our eyes. Gravity is a great example, but we can observe it in other ways. So I don't think it's that wild to think that there's other forces that are acting on us that we can sort of.

perceive but we don't know how we perceive them but we can and so like feeling the emotional connection to art I think is something that can be perceived from human to human sterility to some piece of art as humans we will feel that

Like, why else would we tend to listen to similar music and appreciate similar art to the people we surround ourselves with and we call friends and we resonate with? Because energetically, we're similar. And energetically, broadly, in terms of all these forces that we cannot feel that are acting on us are shared and more similar than they are different.

I think that there's a human way to really appreciate the music and understand it and perceive it and really internalize it like this is a human's creation. Dude, whenever I think about technology, I think about like...

What was life like before it? And so taking art to its fundamental piece, its expression. And if you're using AI to express yourself, are you really expressing yourself? If a caveman had access to AI and was like, yo, I need to write on this wall with this rock.

and draw what our way of life is. They just do it. They're not like, really fucking wish I had a tool that could help me write these cave paintings. They just do the shit, because they're like.

this is what I feel in my heart and in my body and my soul and I feel like this is important to document. So I'm gonna document this shit on this wall because this is where we live. And maybe- First step, I'm a caveman. What would you recommend that I do? Yeah, I mean that's maybe taking it back too far but it's dude, like, it's self-expression. And so at the end of the day, why are you using tools? But like, that's easy enough. I can't fucking play the piano. I can't play guitar. So like,

Ableton is a tool. Every synth I use is a tool. So I get that it's like a gray area. But for me, AI I think sometimes goes too far in certain circumstances and I don't think we really know the consequences of what that's gonna look like in the future. I just don't.

It should be used if it's solving a problem. So if you lack a tool, I need a screwdriver. It's really hard to use your nail on a fucking Philips head. Do you think I could drive those screws on that shelf in the wall in with a fingernail? No, I need the right tool. But I love what you said, what is our expression. It's purely an expression.

The only tool you have for expression is you. Like that's the reason why it's so powerful is that you are the tool. You don't need a tool for it. Now, you may need a tool like a pencil or a tool like a brush that allows you to actually execute on said vision. But the architecture, the building, the structure of it, that's you. But that's like the journey of it too.

I have this vision for a painting. And it's like, so then you type it into AI and then it looks nothing like what you thought. That's fine. That's the tool interpreting what you said. It's not actually bringing your vision to life. Now that you've done it, you've seen what AI generated. Now your vision is tainted. Now you're like,

That's not really what I had in mind, but ooh, I kinda like this element that it added here. And it's like, okay, so now this piece of art is you and something AI generated. Whereas before it was like, I have this vision for a piece of art. I can't really do it yet, but when I figure it out, it's gonna be fucking dope. And that's why people learn. That's how you get good at art. It's by being like, no, this isn't really

expressing it how I want to so you have to learn how to fucking do the shit and I think that's the fundamental flaw. It's a bastardization of art. Dude, it's the fundamental flaw I have of AI. It's good for data. Dude, it is good for data. I don't know why we decided creativity was the first thing we were going to use it for. It's fucking stupid. Yeah. It's good for data. Hey, there's 10,000 fucking people in this list. Tell me the ones that have the last name Williams, which I guess Excel could just do, but like

Yeah, but depending on how clean the data is, You have to have quality data and dude, and that's the project manager in me. And so that's like where my right brain is meeting my left brain, where it's like, I want it here, but I don't really want it here.

Well, I think when it comes to AI and software, it's like the thing that it does exceptionally well is like parse documentation, understand languages with far more specificity than my human brain can. Yeah. And it can write really excellent code.

Well, okay, I can't do that shit. I'm out of a job because it's just better. Better at it. It's better. Dude, but like connecting with people through creative mediums, it's never, I genuinely think it's never going to happen, unless we make general AI, but like it's never gonna have that capability to be like, hey, I made this song, it made me think of you, what do you think about it?

if I wrote a song for my girlfriend, and after it was done, she was like, babe, that was beautiful. I love that song. I can tell you were thinking of me when you made that. And then I said, AI helped me. Does it mean as much now? Like, I don't know. What is that even like? That's a totally different dynamic.

I mean, I think it definitely depends on how you utilize AI, right? Because I definitely don't think it cannot aid in certain parts of production, perhaps. And this is also coming from someone who doesn't produce music, so I don't really know the nuances that are there. And so perhaps I'm coming at it from a little bit of a tainted perspective. But maybe if it were... Okay, here's an example.

So like that little shitty canvas painting I painted. I love that. well thank you, thank you, I appreciate that. I didn't really come up with that idea entirely by myself in a vacuum, right? I wasn't like...

I'm going to get a one by one canvas. I'm going to use these four colors and I'm going to paint a desert with a cactus and a sun. No. This is the order of operations. I want to paint. I've probably painted thrice in my life ever and those were when I was under the age of six. All of them. So I need to figure out what the fuck to paint.

Okay, let's go to Google and search for like easy shit to paint. Gives me a hundred options, right? It's like, cool, a cactus, that's cool. and then color palette, I used.

coolers or whatever, one of the color like, and I'm like, Sandy Palette. And then it's kind of just like giving me colors and like, okay, I have enough that I need to understand I want like, kind of like earthy greens. Or maybe I didn't even use that. I probably just went to the fucking store and bought like the general colors I wanted and just kind of like slow. And then I drew it and I didn't trace anything, but I like drew it in pencil and then I like painted over the pencil. And so it's like, is that art? Dude. So again, like I think- No, but like, is that art? Yes. So-

So what if instead of, what if instead I prompted chat GPT and said, I am want to paint, I really want to paint. I am not a painter. I have little experience. I'm looking for something that's relatively easy. I'd like it to be potentially something, know, naturey. know, don't worry about the color palette. I'll come up with that. But let's try and keep the design to maybe three to five colors.

And then it gave me that as an outline and it said, paint that. So ultimately it's like the same outcome. I'm going to an art supply store to buy a canvas with an idea in my head that came from some aggregation of resources, whether those were aggregated by myself or by AI, whatever, who knows? And then I went and found the colors and the outcome was identical. What's art and what's not? You motherfucker.

I would say it is art. It is your art, but it's not your idea. And that's about the best way that I can put it. You used the tools that were available to you to say, I need something easy, right? Someone out there might say, well, you could have gone to a paint and sip night and got the same outcome.

without chat GPT. And so to that person I would say, well, you're privileged. But second, no, would say like, that's kind of a microcosm of what we're all experiencing as humans with AI. That is it, what is it? Where is the line? When does it become?

proprietary property and when is it just fun? But even in the paint and sip, paint and sip, even in that, you wouldn't claim it as your own idea, right? Because they give you the idea. Totally. Yeah, OK. But you painted it. Right. That does not exist if you don't paint it. So then this art become the outcome.

or does it come the idea and the expression of the idea? And also what is the idea? Now we're getting real philosophical, right? So we are, and so then let's talk about fashion. Dude, a fashion designer comes up with a shirt they want to sell at Forever 21 and then it's mass produced by pennies on the dollar in China. Like, is that art? It was to the fashion designer.

But to the consumer, it's just a fucking $4 shirt that they're now, like, they don't really care what the inception of that idea of the shirt comes from. And I think that's where it actually does become dangerous. Because with music, you have artists who are working their asses off, coming up with ideas, coming up with all of this stuff in their head. And then they put it out. And then you have...

assholes who are generating tracks on like just using AI not doing anything to the shit making it intentionally one minute long so that it'll get as many streams as possible and then dude Spotify was literally like that's fraud that's fraud that's not art that's fraud and so that's where it's like and I don't want to get into this at all but that's where like

the bill that just passed Congress saying states cannot even regulate AI for 10 years at minimum. not being able to regulate AI for 10 years is fucking ridiculous. Period. And that's all I'm going to say about that. But like now, now they're putting the impetus on, on the people to decide.

But it's not on us, it's on the fucking AI companies to decide where the line is. And their line is, well, where do we lose money? So, you know, I don't know. It's fucking recycling all over again. Dude, it is. It's all a fucking, yeah, it's a scam, dude. And like, I'm an environmentalist, I am. Like, I've been vegan for a long time because of the environment. And it's like,

I don't know, man. This became the AI episode, which I actually am glad about because I've been wanting to talk about this, but let's do five more minutes and then any questions we got for like five minutes. I know. We have touched on exactly zero of my talking points, which is amazing. That's amazing and it's fun to have.

you know, an episode where you can do that. So I fucking love it. Yeah,

All right, so I get a lot of ads for like samples of sounds. It's like, these are, this is a sound pack that sounds like Ben Bowmer and like, what's the fucking point then? Right. And so I feel in, in like, there's this reversion to it's funny having that synthesizer. That's a fucking synthesizer from the eighties. It's like broken. The key's broken, but it also doesn't make sound. And it's just like, fuck. I really, I want Ike's Ike's

Lord, the opportunity of selling it and then buying something perhaps newer. But honestly, it's like, I don't know if I want to do that because now I feel like if I buy something newer than what I get a MIDI keyboard, I sample a little fucking Ben Boomer sounds and now I'm just like, oh, mimic Ben Boomer. But that's not the point, right? I could almost rather have a synthesizer that I cannot fucking figure out, but I have to learn how to figure it out so I can create unique sounds that

While other people can create them, while other people likely have created them, and while other people will create them, there is a creative process. There is an experimentation phase that isn't just forcing something else to experiment. Where I'm going with all this is like, I feel like I'm experiencing that reversion. Honestly, this is gonna sound so fucking barbell theory. Like, yeah, this is kind of barbell theory. Do you know barbell theory? It's basically, I'm gonna kind of,

botched this, but it's like more or less, there's the theory that like, okay, you have like a bell curve, like a normal distribution where like the majority is here and then you have the outliers. And the barbell is just the opposite of that, right? So it's like you have... There's no one in the middle. Yeah, it's like the middle's become so extreme. Yeah. There's a mass polarization. Yeah. you have like this sort of like...

Basically the idea is you have on one side of that curve that they call it an upside down bell curve But what's an upside down bell? It's a fucking bell So, you know the barbell curve you have on one end sort of like the the technologist CEO AI leveraging billionaire creating, you know solo entrepreneurs Like unicorn, you know billionaire valuation creating solo solopreneurs and stuff like that and then on the other side you have people who

forage and have a 40 acre farm and live in the middle of nowhere.

And I get why that theory exists and why that's also frightening, that that's kind of how people perceive the world. And I read an article that was denying it. And I'm not saying I'm a huge advocate of it. think that's the reality. But I do feel that the AI and technology just blind acceptance is forcing me to want to revert back to more

primitive times. Dude, I really feel you there. I wish we could close Pandora's box. I do like I think we were doing fine

Social media was hard enough to implement into society. And now we're... Think about how little power that was initially perceived to have and think about the ripple effects it has had. Dude, it's like... We've unleashed the beast. It is here. But I feel you, but I also do think there is a argument to be made from a personal standpoint.

There's this cell phone out there right now. You know what I'm talking about? It's like so like, it's like a Kindle. But it's like, there's no apps. It's like, you can text, you can call, and like, you can read books. But that's it. Like you can't get on Facebook, you can't get on Instagram, you can't fucking do any of that shit. And it's like, as a creative, I have a compulsive need to promote my art.

And I am in like, I don't know, like, what's the word on it? Like I'm in conflict with that because I don't want to be consuming social media so much. I don't want to be on social media. My ex-girlfriend is an influencer and like LA, LA. She's very LA and that's fine for her. But like, I don't want that life. It used to make me really uncomfortable.

Like when she's a food influencer, vegan food influencer, and it used to make me really uncomfortable when we're out at a restaurant and she's gotta take 40 pictures before we can even eat. And I'm like, this is so fucking stupid. Like, what is this actually for? And the argument is, well, it's to spread awareness for veganism, its benefits, and all of this other shit. And it's like, okay, but like, why? Why?

Like what is the fundamental purpose of this? And you know, that's where I'm at with AI right now. And like if the fundamental purpose is to make like mundane, menial tasks obsolete for humans, I'm on board all the way, dude, all the way. But as a creative, I do have to say, well, what place does this tool now have in my life?

Because as a project manager, if this thing can send me an email and be like, yo, you're three days from this deadline and you haven't even started by the way. Like sick, I want that. But if it's like, by the way, your chord progression here, you could do this, might make it little bit more catchy. That's hard to ignore. That's really hard to ignore. But then is it me? Is it me? Because it's like the same thing with labels giving feedback on music.

Hey, we like your baseline, but we think it should maybe go a little bit like this. Like there has to be some sacrifice to play ball, but like at the end of the day, when does it stop becoming what you made? And then it is now what they made. so, you know, I think that there is a place for it in our society, but I think that it does need some super fucking heavy regulation around it. And like,

There's always gonna be some dudes out there who are getting around the regulations. Like how do you even regulate it? I don't even, hey don't use chat GPT, okay. We can't go that far. We'll only use it for this, okay. Still can't really go that far. So like it's tough and I really think they just kicked the can down to somebody 10 years ago is what they did. They're like we're not smart enough to deal with this problem right now so we're gonna make it someone else's problem so that it can't come back on us. And.

You know, I think it's really a shame to be honest with you about like in general, the population of the world being exposed to this tool without any knowledge of it. It has already become so powerful before so many people even know what it could do two years ago. Like, they're like, yeah, just chat GPT that. It's like, okay, what does that mean? And like,

We don't get into this, but I think human relationships are really gonna change in a bad way. It's already hard enough to, people get anxiety if you have to call a person to order a pizza. Like, door dashes down? Guess I'm not eating. Just call somebody, dude.

it seems with social media, there's just a mass adoption. And as a creative, you feel the compulsion to,

promote your art.

There's, I think in that statement, there's like a surrender to social media, a surrender that it's not something you want to do. You begrudgingly post and promote via social media as it's sort of a necessary evil. Well, if AI is something that can more or less like be optional in the sense that you as a creative can decide whether or not you use

AI to make your process a bit easier, the outcome is not through AI. It's a conscious decision that you make to use it or not. So I think the bit of optimism that I hold here is that while I don't love that the burden is put on the consumer, that is wrong, in my opinion.

I do think it is a bit unique to say social media in the sense that it can be purely optional. If you are a developer and you choose not to use AI, now you may lose your job, you know, there's, but initially, but there may be a client who says, I refuse to work with a company that uses AI and I will not hire developer who uses AI. I had a lead.

who asked if I use AI, because he was like, I don't know if I like that. I'm like, interesting. This is interesting to hear you say you do not want to hire someone who uses AI. Because Google will not hire someone who doesn't. In fact, they're firing people for AI. And that just shows the polarity, right? So I guess my point is that the optimist in me looks at it and says, well, fortunately, it's a bit unique to social media in the sense that there are tools that you like.

everything, the AI, they're all called tools. Social media has never been referred to as a tool. It has in the sense that it is a tool, but it's sort of like this creature that you have to keep feeding and feeding and feeding, and if you feed it enough, it'll protect you and help you and whatever, it's this creature and it can serve you. It feels different with AI, and it almost feels like there is, again, this might just be being a hopeless optimistic, but...

It feels like there's a bit of buy-in that we do have whether we choose to use it. But there's gonna be people who fuck it up and who misuse it and you need to account for that as well. And that's where the policy comes in. Yeah, yeah, no, I think that's a good point. And going back to like social media, like my girlfriend Jen doesn't use it. Like she has an Instagram, she has a Facebook, doesn't use it. Like she's not on there. And I'm not gonna say that I'm like chronically on there.

But I'm on social media. And so I think that, but she uses AI every day at work. She works for Whole Foods corporate, which is Amazon. So in her job, in her professional career, social media is some people's professional career.

And so they will end up using AI and social media in tandem, which I think is like wild, first of all. But I look at her and I'm like, how can you not use social media? What is your life like? And I'm like, well, I know what your life is like. We live together. That's not so bad. But I do hesitate. think social media is revolutionary, right?

but it's not as revolutionary as the internet itself. AI, I think, is as revolutionary as the internet itself. If not more. If not more. And so there, I think we do have to really be careful about, as a society, like you said, there's buy-in, right? I'm sitting here getting a certification that I paid $800 to take this course.

to get a certification in AI simply because I want to know what are best practices, how do I use this responsibly, what are the guardrails in place, if any. And I want to be in a position, I'm not having kids, I'm not going to pass this information down to them, but I want to know for my own self, I need to have the information to make a decision.

If I go work for Microsoft, it's not my decision. You use it, period, and here's how you use it. And so I think that that is, again, another dangerous part because I look, my mom is 61, she's disabled, diabetic, she's half blind, but she's my mom. She's super intelligent, very smart, hardworking, wants to contribute. She can't get a job, right, because she's older and disabled. But she's not old enough to retire. But she also can't get disability because the state of Ohio has decided

you're not disabled enough to get disability, whatever the fuck that means. But now, in the age of AI, dude, there's plenty of 40 and 50 year olds who are like, I'm too old for that, I'm not even gonna try. it's like, okay, so now we're cutting out a significant portion of the workforce, and I don't even know what we're talking about anymore. But it's like, like.

I'm right there with you. It's like my brain has just gone so far down this hole now. And like, this is the shit that keeps me up at night. You know, it's like I wake up in the morning, I drink my coffee with my dog and my girlfriend and we sit and we chat before we go to work. And then we go to work and then it's okay, now all this real life shit I have to like confront.

Like, I'm the AI advocate on my team, but I'm sitting here with you talking like, I don't know about that AI shit, you know? And so, I don't know, it's all just really, really, really fucking dystopian feeling at the moment. And I think everyone's feeling that, which is why, to loop it back, which is why I think so many people are getting fucked up and going to raves, dude. Because it's fun. And it's like, I don't have to think about any of that shit, dude. When I'm on that stage playing music, playing my own music,

watching people just close their eyes and just be there. I think it's more important now than ever that people go out to raves and concerts and hiking and nature and do everything because we live our lives inside of a screen, regardless if we like that or not. And so, to put a bow on the whole thing, it's like...

I don't really know what we're doing and no one really knows what we're doing, but we're all trying to find out what this thing's place in our lives is. And what we're not gonna do is submit to human authenticity or not submit to you. I think human authenticity will always have a place. And that's something my friends, not fans, say about me is that I'm authentic.

I say what I believe and I'm vulnerable when I need to be vulnerable and I don't think that that will ever go out of style.

Amen.

I've been thinking a lot about money and specifically my relationship with money. I've never thought about my relationship with money. Like what the fuck is a relationship with money? Money is a fucking money. But now I'm starting to think about that and I'm starting to think about my relationship with things. I think the first time I experienced this was my relationship with my car in Australia. I fucking loved her. Like she got me.

Called her Kim Possible. She could fucking do anything. She was a bad bitch, strong as fuck, just let me live in her. That's weird. But I did. And I really started to experience that car obviously not as a human. I recognize it's not a human. I'm not on one of those fucking shows that's like, fuck my car.

But I gave it the respect I think that it deserved. And part of the respect that it deserved was like the gratitude for it, the recognition, just like being appreciative and grateful for it. And...

It's important that I think we as a society learn the lesson that we should treat things more like humans, perhaps, and don't abuse things as much, even though they may not feel physical hurt and harm from it. It's not like hug everything, but it's like also respect everything and give it what it actually deserves. And I think to that point of respect,

I beat the shit out of that car too. It was also a utility, that's the service it was providing me, right? And then I gave it love, gratitude. I changed the oil myself all the time and really did treat it with care, but I expected a lot out of her and she delivered. But my point is I think perhaps there's an awakening because of AI that is caused through AI because

it will reach a point that hopefully doesn't kill us, but gets us to a point where we recognize the importance of appreciating a tool and using a tool for what it's meant and demanding something from a tool, but also recognizing that there's a place. It cannot become your life. There's respect. There's gratitude and a recognition that it is serving a role, but there's boundaries there.

Boundaries to it and those boundaries are so important. That car, I intentionally didn't fuck that car. That was a boundary I set. The car didn't need to set it. I recognize you're not a partner. You're partner in a sense, not a romantic partner, right? But that doesn't mean I didn't love her. And so I think there's hopefully gonna be a bit of an awakening or a resurgence to just being more

grateful for the world around us even if it is manmade, if it is technology, even if it is manufactured. That doesn't mean we can't appreciate it. I appreciate nature a lot. But I can also appreciate cars,

You know, I love cars. I'm car motorcycles. That'll be episode two or three. We've already got a lot. It'll really just be notes for two and then we'll never get to that. Dude, this has been super great. Thank you so much. I so appreciate you spending time with me here today. And maybe I made some fans friends today and maybe I lost some, but you know, I think

it's important to just display who we are to people. As an artist, I'm in a unique position where there's tons of people who know me that I don't know. And so I need to let those people know like, hey, this is what I'm about. This is who I am. This is what I'm doing. If you're on board sick, if not, that's cool too. And I really appreciate this outlet like a ton. Thank you so much.

Dude, absolute pleasure. Thank you, thank you, thank you. I honestly kind of got lost in your gratitude and was just like not even realizing you were talking to me too. I was a little caught off guard because that was genuine. get why your friends call you authentic. I felt it the first time we met. Yeah, dude. That was a great moment too. It's like some people you just click with, And I feel like we'll be clicking, dude. This is great. This is great.

We'll chat more. I'll boogie more at your shows. Yes. Cool. All right. Hell yeah. Thanks, man. You're so welcome. Thank you.